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OT - Shop insulation

Bob,

My house is setup the same way, it's stick framed 4,200 sq/ft. ICF Basement (walkout) single main floor above . 2x6 Walls w R21 Insulation, Ceiling is blown Cellulose at R45 (ish). Hydronic heat in basement floor, and about 1,200 sq ft upstairs is also hydronic. Same NTI FTVN boiler, Combi for domestic hot water, 150K/BTU. I used 80 gallons of propane in the same time period, including, heating, domestic hot water, (2 teenagers showering) Clothes dryer, and range.

That, I'm cool with!

As far as heating with wood, I don't think I'd mind if I can get a wood boiler that I can stoke in the morning and when I leave at 8 or 9 pm. We only have pine realistically in the area, I'm told that Larch is the best species to burn, but no where near oak.
Pictures of said shop and insulation? etc
 
Gas creates a great deal of moisture but the exhaust shouldn’t really stink
I had to cut into my 24 year old exhaust pvc at work and it looks like it was never used inside
What are your water temps like
What is your floor temp like
Does the room temp ever overshoot the thermostat
Thoughts that may or may be relevant

return temps to the boiler I would think ought to be as low as possible to ensure condensing
I think the mod cons use return temps to decide what output should be unless you have a smart thermostat
Most of this should be details

Output water temp from the boiler is 127 deg
Return temps from floor are about 105ish
Never seen it overshoot by more than a degree
Today it's 3 deg and Boiler is running like a mofo!
 
Those numbers sound pretty normal to me, maybe a high Delta T but that is above my pay grade. YOu are not overshooting temp so I cannot say your water temp is too high
 
Your building is either leaky as hell, your system is undersized, or both. This is assuming you are not trying for a room temp greater than 70 deg F.

My system was designed by a Wirsbo engineer (a friend from way back) who, I assume, knows his stuff. Max output pipe temp at -35 C outside and howling is 38 deg C. Delta has never been greater than 8 deg C. System is cheap to run. I run at constant air temp of 60 deg F at six feet above floor for winter.

Those who claim that radiant heat is expensive to install and run, probably haven’t got the knowledge to design and build their system or haven’t hired the right people. Again, the key is the heat is not stratified with the heater and warmth fourteen feet up, it’s down low where it should be.
 
Your building is either leaky as hell, your system is undersized, or both. This is assuming you are not trying for a room temp greater than 70 deg F.

My system was designed by a Wirsbo engineer (a friend from way back) who, I assume, knows his stuff. Max output pipe temp at -35 C outside and howling is 38 deg C. Delta has never been greater than 8 deg C. System is cheap to run. I run at constant air temp of 60 deg F at six feet above floor for winter.

Those who claim that radiant heat is expensive to install and run, probably haven’t got the knowledge to design and build their system or haven’t hired the right people. Again, the key is the heat is not stratified with the heater and warmth fourteen feet up, it’s down low where it should be.
Do you think his delta is too high?
I thought it was highish but not out of scale
 
Interesting read. I put up buildings as a kid. If the foam closures were skipped or not installed correctly the building is likely sealed as well as an old barn.

One thought, does it have a ridge vent? Is it closed?

Seems like gustafson was on to something from page one. Seems like this building leaks.
 
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From my research one of the big benefits to slab heat is you are only heating were needed 0'-8'. so it should be colder higher up. your not blasting super hot air that raises to the ceiling. the slabs 70 deg. its slowly heating.
maybe the big fans you have are hurting not helping.
Hot air with even a small temperature deferential raises quickly. The only way a building, after initial heating to temp, is cooler at the peak is through poor insulation and heat loss. Your researched theory might have worked in 1950 when heat was cheap. Today few could afford to heat from the bottom and let it out from the top. If you're not letting it out, it really doesn't matter where the heat comes from.
 
I haven't read every post, but....

The cheapest way to redo the ceiling insulation is to hang a flat ceiling, thereby making an attic and keeping the heat at the lower levels and making an attic, airseal the bottom, blow in 20" or so of cellulose and vent the attic. 2" of filterglass, yeah that's what it is, ain't doing much and won't ever.

Walls are more difficult, but whatever you choose, don't put in filterglass or cellulose with a vapor barrier on the cold side. Guaranteed to soak your insulation with condensation.

Slab insulation - too bad it's only R10, if you're running a radiant slab the Delta T is 50deg or so. You're kinda screwed there. I know earth is better insulation than circulating cold outside air, but that's still a lot of heat loss. Redoing the perimeter insulation, going down as far, and out, as you can with 6" or so thickness of foam is about all you can do there. And if using foam sheets for anything, space them a 1/4" apart and fill the gaps with a foam gun. Air leakage is really important here. Multiple layers of foam help, too.

I know, you've moved in and doing anything inside is going to be difficult. Yup. The alternative is clearly not palatable to you or you wouldn't be here.

Outside wood boiler? You're going to be burning a lot of wood, inefficiently. Fire wood prices around here (Vermont) track propane and heating oil prices, I suspect it's the same in Idaho.

Building Science is a great site, Joe knows his stuff. (Just don't try to pronounce his last name :-)

Blower door test with thermal imaging film will go a long way to identify air leaks and you may be able to get help from the state or utilities. I dunno Idaho. There're federal initiatives to help, too, though usually more difficult to access.

Good luck!
 
Hi guys,

Looking for some ideas on how to (better) insulate a steel building. I built a new 8,000 sq/ft steel building 2 years ago. They sold me a fiberglas insulation package with white ripstop plastic glued to it. Trouble is, I'm in North Idaho and the insulation value is only R-13. Costing me a fortune to heat the shop. Looking to add insulation to the roof at least for now. Problem is it's a operating shop and PACKED with machinery. no room at all for scissor lift access to entire roof. Sidewalls are 14', peak is about 21', 60' wide building

Possible solutions
- Spray foam is obvious, but REALLY expensive up here (About 1/2 what I paid for the building) - Also don't like the way it looks, especially in a machine shop with coolant and weld smoke in the air. Quoted cost about 30K - net R-value gain about 10-15 points I'm told
- Blue Foam board, Could cut to 24" panels and install between the purlins, Estimated cost about 10K, Net R-value gain about 11 points
- Steel sheet the inside of the purlins and blow in cellulose. (I have 6" purlins), would be a PITA to blow each space individually. - Unknown R value gain, Estimated cost 10-15K

Wondering if anyone knows of a ridgid insulation that would have a surface coating that's not butt ugly and doesn't cost more that 15K to do 8K

Help please, just spent $1,600 on propane for the last month...
The trouble with insulation batts between steel purlins is that the purlins act like cooling fins and your insulation value is cut in half. If you lived in an area with current big city energy codes, the way that your building was constructed would not be allowed. LIkely, it would have R-10 to R-15 rigid insulation attached to the purlins on the outside of the building and then have the steel siding attached over that. Plus the batts between studs or purlins. The insulation then is uninterrupted and will have it's full value. Current energy codes are now requiring something like R-20 to R-33 walls. People complain about the cost but soon realize that you only need 1/3 of the energy and 1/3 of the costly heating equipment. In commercial buildings with air conditioning, it is almost always less expensive to add insulation than buy oversized equipment.
It is a bother, but with your building, the easiest solution to your issue is the unscrew the exterior siding, install the foam board and reinstall the siding. It probably is easier than working indoors.
Unprotected foam plastics inside a building are always a bad idea. They burn incredibly fast and hot. Large buildings can become fully engulfed in minutes with dripping burning plastic covering everything. Hopefully, you and the workers can run out of the building before being overcome with hot toxic fumes, usually within minutes. Sorry for sounding like an ex Fire Marshal.
BTW, you can also unscrew the roofing panels and apply foam. It is fairly common when refurbishing older building that need to be brought up to code.
 








 
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