OT - Shop insulation

[50BMG DUDE]

My son just insulated his steel building, as a retrofit.
He got rolls of vinyl faced fiberglass to fit between the rafters. This is held up with metal strips about 3/4" wide, 16 gauge, that run parallel to the ridge line, spaced about 3 feet on centers. The edges of the fiberglass have tabs about 3" wide with adhesive tape so that one edge stuck to the rafter, and the other edge overlaps. It's held in place nicely.
If you don't have much depth left between your rafters (or purlins), you can add simple blocks to create space; something like a short piece of metal wall stud just to screw the metal strips to.
This pick shows the bands I'm talking about:

Banded System

bayinsulation.com

Bob

This may be what I'm after - thanks! I'll do some checking into it.

 

[gustafson]

SO you keep drip feeding information, this is not a good way to get relevant answers
Are you paying too much for propane or using too much?
It is hard to tell from your information
Sure, go ahead, buy a bunch of insulation, it might do something, or your heating system might be a POS.
Or maybe you are paying 6 bucks a gallon for propane

Have you ever hearted an 8k building in your location?
I didn't even turn the heat on last month, and 6 weeks of your heat bill would heat my shop for a year, but I am on Nat gas and at least a climate zone warmer

 

[gbent]

Thermal Design out of Madison Nebraska did the complete insulation package for my building. It was more than a semi van trailer full. All precut as necessary, just install.

 

[Speedie]

Get the sprayfoam. Spraying it against any thing...steel, old insulations..ect doesnt matter it is a constant R where fiberglass droops causing a huge loss in R over time. Where I am in wisconny you dont mess around non moving air in the peaks or anything less than the best (spray foam)

 

[50BMG DUDE]

SO you keep drip feeding information, this is not a good way to get relevant answers
Are you paying too much for propane or using too much?
It is hard to tell from your information
Sure, go ahead, buy a bunch of insulation, it might do something, or your heating system might be a POS.
Or maybe you are paying 6 bucks a gallon for propane

Have you ever hearted an 8k building in your location?
I didn't even turn the heat on last month, and 6 weeks of your heat bill would heat my shop for a year, but I am on Nat gas and at least a climate zone warmer

Gustafson,

Propane is $2.40/gal I used 700 gallons last month.

I'm well aware the problem is poor insulation, I understand what insulation does, and how it does it. I mis-placed my trust in the building manufacturer (World Wide Buildings out of Missouri FWIW). I contacted them last year (1st year heating the building) about what I feel to be a missed specification and they basically told me to get F&^Ked.

I'm stuck with what I have, and would like to fix it as much as I can afford, which is about 15 grand. I'm not going to re-design the building, I'm not going to re-design the heating system, I simply asked if anyone knew of an alternative to spray foam or blue foam panels to add additional insulation to the building. There have been a couple options presented, and without your air of superiority I might add.

I'm not "drip feeding" you information, as I pretty much gave all of the information needed in the first post. You may be a thermodynamic engineer with a doctorate in insulation technology for all I know, There are some remarkable people who come on this board. But don't be such a dick, or don't bother replying.

You remark " I didn't even turn the heat on last month, and 6 weeks of your heat bill would heat my shop for a year, but I am on Nat gas and at least a climate zone warmer" means absolutely dick to me because you are not in the same circumstances. I've only lived up here in N Idaho for 3 years, but before that it was 12 years in Phoenix. My heating bills were non-existant down there (Duh) How does that even apply?


To everyone else that has replied, Thanks!

 

[gustafson]

So you know the answer, why ask the question?
No you did not give all of the relevant information, and still haven't
Who is asking you do redesign your heating system?
YOu were burning a gallon an hour 24/7 for a month
By the quick and dirty calculations I showed you, unless it was 10F 24/7 for that month, guess what...it is not all about the insulation, so maybe, just maybe look at the boiler and see if it is set up right

YOu are burning propane like you keep the door open all day

But, hey act like I am giving you a hard time and not trying to get the information you need to fix your problem

Guess we know why there ought to be building inspectors
Have you checked the snow loading calcs on the roof of that building?
You might not need insulation after a good snow, if those calcs were the same as the insulation ones

By all means, take the one sentence recommendations
More insulation is rarely a bad idea, but I really do not see it solving your problem

 

[kustomizer]

Poly iso is better than blue board and for some reason there are piles of factory seconds available at a reasonable like this

Polyiso Insulation - materials - by dealer - sale

***New Polyiso Insulation Seconds*** Great Insulating Value at Bargain Prices! 4' x 4' tapered - $ 250 / pallet - 96” high stack Tapered material is the best deal by far! Each sheet has a tapered...

spokane.craigslist.org

 

[gustafson]

The average temp in Bonners Ferry Idaho in November of 22 was 34 degrees https://weather-forecast.nz/usa/1516/bonners_ferry/november-climat/


In big roundy numbers that means the walls and roof of your building are responsible for about 23 million btu hours of heat loss in the month of November. A gallon of propane has about 99k btus in it. If you bought a cheap ass boiler with an AFUE of 80 percent, that means there are about 79.2k btu available in every gallon of propane you burned. SO, knowing that, we can say that, in all probability, your walls and roof are responsible for about 290 gallons of the 700 you burned.

If you doubled the insulation you would drop your fuel consumption by 145 gallons



So spend away, next November you will burn 555 gallons of propane


Now if you bought one of the most efficient propane boilers available:https://thefurnaceoutlet.com/products/rinnai-i150sn-150000-btu-heat-only-condensing-boiler?variant=41761361166509&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&currency=USD&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6uSpqsXK-wIVpDizAB091wztEAQYASABEgLyAvD_BwE

less than 3 grand.
Pay that off in, what, a year?

You would burn about 600 gallons compared to a cheap boiler.........but you know..........you do what you want.

 

[newtonsapple]

What's the boiler efficiency? What temp do you keep inside? Knowing this and exactly how much fuel we used we can estimate fuel costs for the year as well as the effective average R value for the building. This info puts choices about insulation in context.

I don't know the exact days your 700 gallons covered, but I pulled the temp data for your location for the past 30 days. With an indoor temp of 60F, that came out to 820 heating degree days.

700 gallons X 91,502 BTU/Gallon = 64.1 Million BTU
64 MMBTU x .85 (assumed boiler efficiency) = 54.4 MMBTU
54.4 MMBTU / 820 HDD = 66,395 BTU/HDD
Annual HDD for your location at 60F is 5570 HDD.
66,395 BTU/HDD * 5570 HDD = 369.8 MMBTU/Year
369.8 MMBTU / 91,502 BTU/Gal = 4041 Gallons/Year
4041 Gallons * $2.40 = $9600 /Year

66,395 BTU/HDD / 24H = 2766.4 BTU/ Deg /H
820 HDD / 30 Days = 27.3 Delta F (Average indoor vs outdoor temp)
2766.4 BTU/ Deg /H * 27.3F = 75,616 BTU/H
8000 SF (floor) * 20F (assumed ground floor delta T) * 1/R10 = 16,000 BTU/H
75,616 BTU/H - 16,000 BTU/H = 59616 BTU/H
1 / (59616 BTU/H / 13,413SF / 27.3F) = R6.15 Current wall and ceiling effective R value*

*Assumed flat ceiling at 14' and bakes in a bunch of building dynamics like solar gain and infiltration. It is actually a little higher R than expected because inflation isn't broken out. Full detail of the construction would allow an accurate calc.

Adding 2" of R11 polyiso to the interior in a continuous fashion with sealed joints would safe the following"
16,000 BTU/H (floor) + 13,413SF * 27.3F * 1/(R6.15+R11) = 37,378 BTU/H

(75,616 BTU/H - 37,378 BTU/H) / 75,616 BTU/H * $9600 /Year = $4855 savings per year

Switching to 3" R16.5 polyiso saves $5513 per year. You start to hit diminishing returns because at this point half your heat loss is out the wall/ceiling and half is out the floor.

I did these calcs quick and there are a bunch of assumptions so point out if I got something wrong, but there is a bunch of money on the table.

At $9600/year in propane every 5% efficiency is $480/year. If your boiler is 90% efficient, it's not worth touching in most circumstances. If it is 70%, it is almost always worth upgrading. Everything in between, you keep an eye on that number relative to cost of more insulation.

Check with the state to see if there are any incentive programs for improving energy efficiency. They might be through you electric utility and you might need to do a trick like throwing in a little bit of electric heat (couple baseboards) to quality.

 

[newtonsapple]

Poly iso is better than blue board and for some reason there are piles of factory seconds available at a reasonable like this

Polyiso Insulation - materials - by dealer - sale

***New Polyiso Insulation Seconds*** Great Insulating Value at Bargain Prices! 4' x 4' tapered - $ 250 / pallet - 96” high stack Tapered material is the best deal by far! Each sheet has a tapered...

spokane.craigslist.org

That is a very good deal. It is cut tapered for flat(ish) roofs. Given that it is new and not reclaimed, it must be miss cut or canceled orders. At 2" that is $0.32/SF or $4,366 to cover the shop. Still a lot of work to install.

Dow Thermax in White 2" is probably more like $1.25SF at retail costs. This shop would likely get into some decent volume pricing so I would definitely quote that product.

I know you don't have inspections, but flammability with foam is a real concern. If it is not rated to be exposed, you really should cover it with a approved barrier. Left uncovered, foam turns into a molten lava when ignited that dramatically accelerates the burn rate.

 

[kustomizer]

I looked at several types and decided the poly iso was the least flammable, less than OSB and there are always piles of seconds at good prices.

We heat the air not the floor, my research led me to believe it would be more economical though likely not quite as comfortable, we maintain 68 degrees

 

[50BMG DUDE]

The average temp in Bonners Ferry Idaho in November of 22 was 34 degrees https://weather-forecast.nz/usa/1516/bonners_ferry/november-climat/


In big roundy numbers that means the walls and roof of your building are responsible for about 23 million btu hours of heat loss in the month of November. A gallon of propane has about 99k btus in it. If you bought a cheap ass boiler with an AFUE of 80 percent, that means there are about 79.2k btu available in every gallon of propane you burned. SO, knowing that, we can say that, in all probability, your walls and roof are responsible for about 290 gallons of the 700 you burned.

If you doubled the insulation you would drop your fuel consumption by 145 gallons



So spend away, next November you will burn 555 gallons of propane


Now if you bought one of the most efficient propane boilers available:https://thefurnaceoutlet.com/products/rinnai-i150sn-150000-btu-heat-only-condensing-boiler?variant=41761361166509&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&currency=USD&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6uSpqsXK-wIVpDizAB091wztEAQYASABEgLyAvD_BwE

less than 3 grand.
Pay that off in, what, a year?

You would burn about 600 gallons compared to a cheap boiler.........but you know..........you do what you want.

For someone who seems to know so much - you couldn't be more wrong.

I have an NTI FTVN199 (The FTVN is a high efficiency, wall hung boiler using a durable, vertical down-fired stainless heat exchanger. With 10:1 modulation and 96% AFU, an integrated ECM pump) Installed by a very experienced company. Floor is 3/4 Oxy barrier pex, 2 zones, 16" OC. 1-1/2" Manifold diameters, copper tubing. Silver brazed using Harris Alloys Stay-silv brazing alloy. The gas boiler is fed with 1" underground pro-pex with 1-1/2" risers feeding a 1.5M BTU regulator where it transitions to 1" black iron hard pipe to feed the boiler thru a 1" ball gas valve. It is vented and supplied combustion air thru a 4" CPVC stack system that is approximately 5 feet long on each run with 2) 90 deg bends installed in each run.

I heated the last month October 17 to Nov 19 and burned 701 gallons of propane. I keep my shop at 60 degrees F, night and day to minimize heat cost and try to minimize heat fluctuations in my machinery.

The floor hydronic system ran me $24,862.55, installed summer of 2020 - Would you like that adjusted for inflation?

Any other ASSumtions - ASShole?

 

[50BMG DUDE]

To everyone else, I really do appreciate the input. I know there are some grumpy assholes on this board that seems their only joy in life is try to "help" someone by "educating them" how stuff is in the real world.

I am constantly awed by some of the experience and skills on this board, and I really mean that. I rarely post, because I am a fairly humble individual. I only post when I feel I can actually help someone out, or (more often) need some help.

That said, don't take me for a North Idaho hillbilly, I own a very successful company and am semi-retired, in all new digs and new shop/house on 60 acres on the side of a mountain in God's country at 49. Tool & Die/Prototype shop full of high end CNC equipment including, Okuma, Mazak, Roders, Mori, Sodick and a ton of manual stuff. Separate wood working and automotive hobby shop (Stick Framed )

I make a lot of high end custom camera gear and movie magic type motion control equipment. If you watch football on network TV, you've seen my work. If you've been to a movie in the last ten years, it was made with some of my gear.

I started this thread looking for some simple recommendations or ideas to add additional insulation to my building. I fucked up when I trusted the company to spec the insulation. I also trusted them to engineer my building for the snow loads in the area. If it collapses and destroys 3-4 Million worth of equipment, I have insurance and a damned good lawyer for that eventuality.

 

[50BMG DUDE]

What's the boiler efficiency? What temp do you keep inside? Knowing this and exactly how much fuel we used we can estimate fuel costs for the year as well as the effective average R value for the building. This info puts choices about insulation in context.

I don't know the exact days your 700 gallons covered, but I pulled the temp data for your location for the past 30 days. With an indoor temp of 60F, that came out to 820 heating degree days.

700 gallons X 91,502 BTU/Gallon = 64.1 Million BTU
64 MMBTU x .85 (assumed boiler efficiency) = 54.4 MMBTU
54.4 MMBTU / 820 HDD = 66,395 BTU/HDD
Annual HDD for your location at 60F is 5570 HDD.
66,395 BTU/HDD * 5570 HDD = 369.8 MMBTU/Year
369.8 MMBTU / 91,502 BTU/Gal = 4041 Gallons/Year
4041 Gallons * $2.40 = $9600 /Year

66,395 BTU/HDD / 24H = 2766.4 BTU/ Deg /H
820 HDD / 30 Days = 27.3 Delta F (Average indoor vs outdoor temp)
2766.4 BTU/ Deg /H * 27.3F = 75,616 BTU/H
8000 SF (floor) * 20F (assumed ground floor delta T) * 1/R10 = 16,000 BTU/H
75,616 BTU/H - 16,000 BTU/H = 59616 BTU/H
1 / (59616 BTU/H / 13,413SF / 27.3F) = R6.15 Current wall and ceiling effective R value*

*Assumed flat ceiling at 14' and bakes in a bunch of building dynamics like solar gain and infiltration. It is actually a little higher R than expected because inflation isn't broken out. Full detail of the construction would allow an accurate calc.

Adding 2" of R11 polyiso to the interior in a continuous fashion with sealed joints would safe the following"
16,000 BTU/H (floor) + 13,413SF * 27.3F * 1/(R6.15+R11) = 37,378 BTU/H

(75,616 BTU/H - 37,378 BTU/H) / 75,616 BTU/H * $9600 /Year = $4855 savings per year

Switching to 3" R16.5 polyiso saves $5513 per year. You start to hit diminishing returns because at this point half your heat loss is out the wall/ceiling and half is out the floor.

I did these calcs quick and there are a bunch of assumptions so point out if I got something wrong, but there is a bunch of money on the table.

At $9600/year in propane every 5% efficiency is $480/year. If your boiler is 90% efficient, it's not worth touching in most circumstances. If it is 70%, it is almost always worth upgrading. Everything in between, you keep an eye on that number relative to cost of more insulation.

Check with the state to see if there are any incentive programs for improving energy efficiency. They might be through you electric utility and you might need to do a trick like throwing in a little bit of electric heat (couple baseboards) to quality.

Thanks for the info, and how you conveyed it!

Is your floor calc taking into account the 2" of R-11 Dow Foam installed? (it's in an earlier post)

 

[newtonsapple]

For someone who seems to know so much - you couldn't be more wrong.

I have an NTI FTVN199 (The FTVN is a high efficiency, wall hung boiler using a durable, vertical down-fired stainless heat exchanger. With 10:1 modulation and 96% AFU, an integrated ECM pump) Installed by a very experienced company. Floor is 3/4 Oxy barrier pex, 2 zones, 16" OC. 1-1/2" Manifold diameters, copper tubing. Silver brazed using Harris Alloys Stay-silv brazing alloy. The gas boiler is fed with 1" underground pro-pex with 1-1/2" risers feeding a 1.5M BTU regulator where it transitions to 1" black iron hard pipe to feed the boiler thru a 1" ball gas valve. It is vented and supplied combustion air thru a 4" CPVC stack system that is approximately 5 feet long on each run with 2) 90 deg bends installed in each run.

I heated the last month October 17 to Nov 19 and burned 701 gallons of propane. I keep my shop at 60 degrees F, night and day to minimize heat cost and try to minimize heat fluctuations in my machinery.

The floor hydronic system ran me $24,862.55, installed summer of 2020 - Would you like that adjusted for inflation?

This is good info, there won't be any cost effective improvements there. If you ever have to replace it, you can save a few bucks by dropping to a 150kBTU model. The 99% design temp is 10F for your location, which works out to a load of 111kBTU/hr.

This further confirms the need to focus on the enclosure.

 

[50BMG DUDE]

That is a very good deal. It is cut tapered for flat(ish) roofs. Given that it is new and not reclaimed, it must be miss cut or canceled orders. At 2" that is $0.32/SF or $4,366 to cover the shop. Still a lot of work to install.

Dow Thermax in White 2" is probably more like $1.25SF at retail costs. This shop would likely get into some decent volume pricing so I would definitely quote that product.

I know you don't have inspections, but flammability with foam is a real concern. If it is not rated to be exposed, you really should cover it with a approved barrier. Left uncovered, foam turns into a molten lava when ignited that dramatically accelerates the burn rate.

I understand about leaving the foam exposed, if you go back and look at my earlier posts about sprayfoam that is one of my dis-likes in my situation. I don't know how I would cover it.

ETA - That does seem like a really good deal on that Polyiso - Thanks!

 

[50BMG DUDE]

Building is a 4-12 pitch open clear span. 60 wide x 130 long Offices and mezzanine on front right about 20 x40' x8' high inside

Drip

 

[newtonsapple]

Thanks for the info, and how you conveyed it!

Is your floor calc taking into account the 2" of R-11 Dow Foam installed? (it's in an earlier post)

I assumed 2" XPS foam at R10, reality a bit worse that as XPS outgases and will drop to R8.6. EPS is actually a better ground contact product in the long run, but not something to worry about unless you are building something new.

8000 SF (floor) * 20F (assumed ground floor delta T) * 1/R10 = 16,000 BTU/H

With the 96% boiler efficiency the effective enclosure R comes in at 5.3, which is more inline with what I expected. I also assumed a 60x133x14ft box instead of doing the actual geometry but things should be in the right ball park.

With big buildings and cold climates it is often cost effective to get insulation and HVAC engineer to consult. A few thousand on engineering can go a long way as very few builders get either HVAC or insulation right. We have inspections here, but the inspectors don't actually know how to properly enforce code on there topics either. The calculations are not terribly complicated either, so you can build a spreadsheet to compare different designs. The key is covering up that steel framing and making an air tight sealed box.

 

[50BMG DUDE]

I assumed 2" XPS foam at R10, reality a bit worse that as XPS outgases and will drop to R8.6. EPS is actually a better ground contact product in the long run, but not something to worry about unless you are building something new.

8000 SF (floor) * 20F (assumed ground floor delta T) * 1/R10 = 16,000 BTU/H

With the 96% boiler efficiency the effective enclosure R comes in at 5.3, which is more inline with what I expected. I also assumed a 60x133x14ft box instead of doing the actual geometry but things should be in the right ball park.

With big buildings and cold climates it is often cost effective to get insulation and HVAC engineer to consult. A few thousand on engineering can go a long way as very few builders get either HVAC or insulation right. We have inspections here, but the inspectors don't actually know how to properly enforce code on there topics either. The calculations are not terribly complicated either, so you can build a spreadsheet to compare different designs. The key is covering up that steel framing and making an air tight sealed box.

Yeah, starting to realize that now.

There are a few small gaps I've found. Mainly at the top of my OH doors. The sides have nice vinyl weatherstrip but the tops don't have anything other than weather strip foam along the top edge that the door press against (or is supposed to press against). They were high end doors from Midland Door.

Is there some other way to seal the top edge on a metal building/metal door joint? I know on my house it has that 2" wide weatherstrip nail on stuff around the door.

I think I'm going to check out those polyiso panels posted earlier. They are not to far away if it's not some craigslist scam deal.

Thanks again for your contribution

 

[gustafson]

For someone who seems to know so much - you couldn't be more wrong.

I have an NTI FTVN199 (The FTVN is a high efficiency, wall hung boiler using a durable, vertical down-fired stainless heat exchanger. With 10:1 modulation and 96% AFU, an integrated ECM pump) Installed by a very experienced company. Floor is 3/4 Oxy barrier pex, 2 zones, 16" OC. 1-1/2" Manifold diameters, copper tubing. Silver brazed using Harris Alloys Stay-silv brazing alloy. The gas boiler is fed with 1" underground pro-pex with 1-1/2" risers feeding a 1.5M BTU regulator where it transitions to 1" black iron hard pipe to feed the boiler thru a 1" ball gas valve. It is vented and supplied combustion air thru a 4" CPVC stack system that is approximately 5 feet long on each run with 2) 90 deg bends installed in each run.

I heated the last month October 17 to Nov 19 and burned 701 gallons of propane. I keep my shop at 60 degrees F, night and day to minimize heat cost and try to minimize heat fluctuations in my machinery.

The floor hydronic system ran me $24,862.55, installed summer of 2020 - Would you like that adjusted for inflation?

Any other ASSumtions - ASShole?

Again, piecemeal information. G0od information yields good advice.
There is something wrong with, well, something, and as I have pointed out, it is very unlikely your propane is going out the roof and walls.

I am not the asshole who built a building without figuring out how much it would cost to heat, so I suggest you keep your attitude in check.