Paint Issues - On Topic

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Was going to post this in the recon forum, but it's not strictly a recon subject and think a wider audience here will be better. If I am incorrect, feel free to move it.

Painting the Monarch 10EE I am trying to finish up the rebuild on and running into an issue with one of the paints. I am not a paint guy in the largest stretch of the imagination, so need some input.

This is the "accent" color and as such is not so widely used. Long term members here might recall that I can be a bit OCD about some things and downright anal about some of those that catch my attention. Unfortunately, this seems to have have become one of them... < sigh >

So I chose a Blue for the accent color to contrast the White of the lathe's majority. I used a Sherwin Williams oil based enamel White, bought from the box store and it seems to have gone pretty well. I used this same exact can to paint the Taft Peirce No.1 that I rebuilt, as well. ( but used a Red for those accents ) The box store did not have a Blue that I liked in the same Sherwin Williams area, but said they could mix some up for me if I chose a color from their selections. I did, and they did.

It was a little weird going on, took a few more coats to cover, but overall I really liked the color. All was well. ( I thought ) Later, I would find out by accident when I went to move a part that the paint would come right off with barely any more than gentle handling. I thought this my own fault for not prepping the surface properly. So I re-painted the few pieces that marred. Long story short, I would later find out that this was not actually an oil based enamel like the other color. It was water based and needed a primer. Conversations with some people informed me that additionally it was simply a bad choice for my purposes and would not hold up over time.

Okay. Lesson learned.

Off to Sherwin Williams to get something compatible. They gave me an oil based enamel that I was told is a urethane. ( ?? ) I don't know paint. Anyway, we finally got the color correct to my liking, but I am having all kinds of issues with it applying smoothly, no matter what I do to prep the surface, the brush I use, or how it is thinned out. No matter what I do, it leaves ... well... I really don't know how to phrase it... Ultimately, it is brush marks. but they are SO coarse and heavy that they appear like waves in the paint. Heavy waves.

I finally said F it, thinned the paint out heavily, and tried a test. I painted it on thinly. To the point that it did not even really cover. I came back the next day when it was dry and applied another coat. Now, it is better, but not by very much. I am still getting really bad brush strokes.

What gives? What am I doing wrong? How can I fix this? I'll post pics later if I need to.

Thanks.

 

[mach2]

Try one of these if it is just a small area, stripes or the like.

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Preval-Spr...gclid=CJndgI_bgM0CFQgoaQodCkQHCw&gclsrc=aw.ds

Brushing a dark color over a light one, it is hard to get good even coverage. You will need to do some masking to spray but the results will be good. The paint thickness will leave a ridge. No big problem but you can knock it down a bit with a wet fine sanding block when dry.

Next time, after priming consider masking where there will be accent color then mask off the field color when painting the accent, paint thicknesses will be the same for a smooth surface.

I prefer paints from the auto paint stores when I want a good looking and durable finish. Besides getting quality paints there are always knolagable sales personal who surprisingly work often with people like us who are painting machines.

 

[adh2000]

Most modern oil based paints are urethanes, or polyurethanes. Difficult to find the old fashioned boiled linseed oil alkyd enamels. So I'd say you have the correct paint.

Rather than the sprayer or brush, if at all possible, try one of the small very short knapp rollers. They have them at Home Depot, short 1/8" long fuzz of a knapp. The surface might look a bit orange peel, but usually the paint will flow a bit before it hardens and you'll lose the orange peel. No brush marks at least.

Alan

 

[mach2]

Alan, I have also used a roller with success. It can leave a very nice orange peel look as you say. However, use the 1" foam rollers. Most of the fuzzy type rollers I've used leave the fuzz on the painted surface, foam rollers do not.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Try one of these if it is just a small area, stripes or the like.
http://m.homedepot.com/p/Preval-Spr...gclid=CJndgI_bgM0CFQgoaQodCkQHCw&gclsrc=aw.ds

That's interesting. Thank you for the link.

Brushing a dark color over a light one, it is hard to get good even coverage. You will need to do some masking to spray but the results will be good. The paint thickness will leave a ridge. No big problem but you can knock it down a bit with a wet fine sanding block when dry.

No, no... I was not clear enough... I am not trying to cover anything. This is bare metal, bead blasted, and wiped down with denatured alcohol to clean before paint.

I prefer paints from the auto paint stores when I want a good looking and durable finish. Besides getting quality paints there are always knolagable sales personal who surprisingly work often with people like us who are painting machines.

That did not occur to me as I am not spraying. I'll bear it in mind. Thanks.

Most modern oil based paints are urethanes, or polyurethanes. Difficult to find the old fashioned boiled linseed oil alkyd enamels. So I'd say you have the correct paint.

Rather than the sprayer or brush, if at all possible, try one of the small very short knapp rollers. They have them at Home Depot, short 1/8" long fuzz of a knapp. The surface might look a bit orange peel, but usually the paint will flow a bit before it hardens and you'll lose the orange peel. No brush marks at least.

Alan

Hi adh2000! Hmmmm... I'll give it a go, but some of the parts don't lend well to this, I think. I'll have to see. ( things like levers and other irregular shapes/surfaces )

Here are some pics of what I am seeing. The last one is just a random block I grabbed and painted to illustrate my last attempts. It was bare and clean, and the paint VERY thinned, yet still sets up with these ridges and ripples... Very frustrating.

The pics do not illustrate it well, but in person it almost resembles tree bark in the way it "ripples".

 

[mach2]

A primer would help even if you are using a paint that does not require one. It could be the paint is drying too fast, in that case see if your paint manufacturer has a retarder/reducer to slow the paint drying rate.

I just painted a KO Lee grinder and needed a matching color. The paint I used was LIMCO brand, a two part urethane from the auto paint store. I chose a type that did not use a clear coat, one less step. Most was sprayed but some was brushed. Brushing works as well as spraying for rough surfaces where the brush strokes cant be seen. I also brushed some on wood and most of the brush marks flattens out. Still needs the primer. Later in the project touch-up and some small parts were done with a brush. The two part paints are disadvantaged in that once mixed they must be used. This is getting a little off your original topic but if you would like to hear more just say so.

After seeing your photos I would try the roller. First wet sand what you have or if that is the peeling paint then remove it completely. Prime with a self etching primer then roll on the color coat. One thing I've found is to be very orderly and plan the painting steps to reduce handling, arranged parts for easy brushing/rolling including if necessary setting the parts up off of the work surface with spacers, wood blocks and small boxes work great.

Also be orderly about your brush/roller stroke directions, think ahead. I usually brush the corners, edges and tight spots first then the larger visible areas, keeps the brush strokes neat and orderly.

On edit: For wet sanding what you have use a 220 grit wet/dry paper with a hard foam sanding block. Keeping the paper wet will wash away the dust and make the paper last longer. The block will make the paper sand off the high spots (in this case, the brush strokes).

 

[adh2000]

Dude, that looks horrible. I have no idea what you are doing wrong, try the roller.

 

[rons]

The paint you are applying with the brush is drying too fast. I have no idea what you are thinning the paint with. Whatever it is you should use what the paint directions say to use. The solvents are drying too fast and the paint has not enough time to level out.

Given your present situation with the S.W. brand and not wanting to spray I think a roller would give a even textured surface. A plastic drape with a wet floor will prevent most of the surface imperfections you are getting.

If you are after a high gloss smooth surface I can recommend a few paint guns along with a industrial paint brand that I use.

 

[Monarchist]

How can I fix this?

Trust to Valspar for the walls in the residence, Behr for ceilings, and Benjamin-Moore 'Super Spec' P06 primer and tint-of-choice P22 topcoat for the machinery. Urethane Alkyd, single-component, brush, spray, roll, or combination. And can be 'touched up'. Chemistry is not 'old fashioned' but the Wizards at B-M have made it act as if it was.

Sherwin-Williams best latex - more one or several Alcohols than just 'water' - still scrubs up OK 20-years on in the dining/living room. But they don't make even that paint for many years now.

Copied idea on the Benjamin-Moore. Search 'Rock Moss Green' here on PM for the inspiration.

Here - found it:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...e-p22-coating-254024-post1895933/#post1895933

Water-based paints are for painting water.

Bill

 

[traditional-tools]

What type of brush are you using?

Brush makes all the difference in the world.

 

[rhoward]

Spray, do not brush or roll. Go to a commercial paint store and buy some paint intended for equipment use and follow the directions. Do not mix and match primer and color coat paint but get both products from the same paint company. Allow the prime coat to dry thoroughly before spraying the color. Equipment paint formulated for industrial use usually can be reduced with toluene for spraying, or paint thinner. Paint thinner for higher ambient temps and toluene for lower temps. This really matters to get a nice leveled finish. Wear a respirator! Basically do not spray when the air temp is 75 degrees or higher or the paint will likely dry before leveling off. Never ever heard of using alcohol for a paint prep wash but at any rate there are better products for that. Go to your automotive paint supplier for a prep wash. Make sure your gun is clean, be attentive to your air pressure, measured At The Gun! Strain your paint while pouring into gun. Test your gun on a sheet of cardboard before spraying the machine and get the settings correct right up front. It isn't all that hard but the details are fussy and must be followed. Use a water trap on the air line.

Randy

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Dude, that looks horrible. I have no idea what you are doing wrong, try the roller.

LMAO! Thanks. I think... Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Hahaha.

The paint you are applying with the brush is drying too fast. I have no idea what you are thinning the paint with. Whatever it is you should use what the paint directions say to use. The solvents are drying too fast and the paint has not enough time to level out.

I agree. I thought to convey it like this - It appears to be "setting up" too fast. It is not drying. Just setting up to fast. Like it loses its ability to flow and even out way too soon.

Given your present situation with the S.W. brand and not wanting to spray I think a roller would give a even textured surface. A plastic drape with a wet floor will prevent most of the surface imperfections you are getting.
If you are after a high gloss smooth surface I can recommend a few paint guns along with a industrial paint brand that I use.

Thanks. I'll try a roller tomorrow if I find some time. Otherwise, I'll find some middle ground and live with it. Probably another paint and color hue. I am averse to spraying. ( more about that below )

Here - found it:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...e-p22-coating-254024-post1895933/#post1895933

Thanks Bill. Reading now.

What type of brush are you using?
Brush makes all the difference in the world.

Hi TT. I have heard this and so bought a wide range of brushes from el cheapo to "Holy Sh|te! For a BRUSH?" Ironically, the cheapie leaves the best finish, by far... There was one brush that cost more than the quart of paint! A lot more.

Spray, do not brush or roll. Go to a commercial paint store and buy some paint intended for equipment use and follow the directions. Do not mix and match primer and color coat paint but get both products from the same paint company. Allow the prime coat to dry thoroughly before spraying the color. Equipment paint formulated for industrial use usually can be reduced with toluene for spraying, or paint thinner. Paint thinner for higher ambient temps and toluene for lower temps. This really matters to get a nice leveled finish. Wear a respirator! Basically do not spray when the air temp is 75 degrees or higher or the paint will likely dry before leveling off. Never ever heard of using alcohol for a paint prep wash but at any rate there are better products for that. Go to your automotive paint supplier for a prep wash. Make sure your gun is clean, be attentive to your air pressure, measured At The Gun! Strain your paint while pouring into gun. Test your gun on a sheet of cardboard before spraying the machine and get the settings correct right up front. It isn't all that hard but the details are fussy and must be followed. Use a water trap on the air line.

Randy

rhoward, I appreciate the detailed information. Unfortunately, it shows exactly why I do not wish to go down that road. I admire you guys that have the dedication, time, and skill to do so. Member Daryl Bane comes to mind. That's not me though.

I have not the time, nor the inclination to spend that kind of money, or that kind of effort to spraying, much less have the room or inclination to do a proper booth for it. There's just so much time in the day.

This is a brush job, through and through. A working recondition. Not a restoration.

I do thank you for the effort though.

 

[Monarchist]

That Rock Moss thread segues into brush, roller - my prefs, BTW, and in combination - as well as spray. This class of paint 'cross links' or polymerizes with 'time' rather than hardener. That process likes a bit of warmth. A 10EE could be 'tented' and locally warmed-up to shorten the time from weeks to a day or so. Mind - it won't exactly be 'gummy' if you do not. Not when painted at summertime, anyway. Just stronger and back in don't-worry-aboudit service sooner if one does do.

There's also a report after 3+ years of use. On the Hendey. Which Patrick painted with his own Kickapoo Joy juice blend. John Oder, AFAIK, was the first to migrate the colour to stock B-M chemistry. The white and blue you want are stock B-M colour-chart for P22 - if they even need tinted at all. So was my "Chinaberry Red" - more of a wine colour, actually.

The only GOOD news I see in your S-W 'experiment' is that it should come OFF intentionally more easily than not.

I'd JFDT. I'm not into Bondo either, lovely as Daryl's machine - and a few others - are. I DO flap-wheel off sharp projections, just not casting 'pebble' surface. It is wot it is, and I don't confuse the 10EE with the 'metallic mica slate' XJ8-L..

Acetone, not alcohol, wipe-down once clean, then start over with the B-M Super-Spec. Faster if you don't have to 'fight' the verdammt paint.

B-M sez P22 dasn't actually NEED primer, but I'm cautious. And the primer - often out of stock - was actually THERE and on deep sale the day I walked into the local anyway, so..

Bill

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Hold on gents... I just looked at the can of the first paint that I tried. ( and actually liked, save for the adhesion issues )

The label does indeed say "Oil Based Enamel". WTF? I think I may have been misled. But it does clean up with water... How is that possible? This paint stuff is all so confusing.

I'll get a pic shortly...

 

[SRDC]

We've had good success with similar paint (Hammerite - almost impossible to get smooth if it dries too fast) with a cheap paint sprayer. Just set up on a piece of cardboard, dilute to feel (about 1:2 to 1:1 thinner:paint with the Hammerite) and spray on. Practice a bit, but no bother with a paint booth, etc... $10ish for the paint sprayer - cheap enough to throw away if you don't want to clean it up.

I know you said that you didn't want to fool with spraying, but we are NOT painters by anybody's imagination, and we prefer this to a paintbrush for ease and finish in many applications, particularly with thick paint. Thin paint (like a Rustoleum) goes on factory smooth - looks great!

 

[Monarchist]

Hold on gents... I just looked at the can of the first paint that I tried. ( and actually liked, save for the adhesion issues )

The label does indeed say "Oil Based Enamel". WTF? I think I may have been misled. But it does clean up with water... How is that possible?

Alcohols. Emulsifiers. WHICH 'oil' magic. Old standby linseed oil can also be had in food-grade, for example, and folks have indeed used it in human nutrition for Donkey's Years.

A petroleum distillate out of an oil-well it was never.

Bill

 

[gwilson]

Don't confuse edible linseed oil with linseed oil in paint use. Linseed oil that is edible has not been polymerized. That means heated up until it will turn into a drying oil.

For several years I experimented with old recipes for making varnishes. Primarily violin varnishes. I found that edible linseed oil,which has not been adulterated with driers and various chemicals,was MUCH more transparent than the "boiled" linseed oil that you can buy in hardware stores. So,I began using that. This is what they used in the old days(as in 18th. C. varnish making). I polymerized it by heating it to a simmer and holding it for about 20 minutes. It would turn a golden color,and was then fit for a drying oil in varnish. No longer fit to eat!

Do not try painting over oil based paint with latex paint. It will not stick well,and will eventually want to peel off. Follow some of the directions given here. I got to where I could vanish violins so smooth they looked like they were sprayed by just using paint thinner to thin it a bit. I used ox hair brushes 1" wide. Of course,you will not be painting lathes with a brush that small!! A brush with fine bristles in it will give smoother results,along with the proper thinner.

 

[Monarchist]

Don't confuse edible linseed oil with linseed oil in paint use. Linseed oil that is edible has not been polymerized. That means heated up until it will turn into a drying oil.

Folks generally know the difference between 'Flax Oil' and and paint components, Geo. If only by packaging and which shelves in which stores they are displayed on.

The basis is still vegetable, not mineral. For that matter, so are 'probably' carcinogenic Terpenes - not to forget seriously toxic vegetable oils.

Remember when that early environmental satellite tagged a monstrous cloud of pollutants about 30 years back? HEAVY on Terpenes and cousins.

Gummint went on the warpath in search of the felons and got firm ID on the perps.

Not one damned tree in the George Washington National Forest ever spent a day in court or a jail-cell, nor paid a fine, though.

"National" forest? Guess we could class that sort of tree-pass as some form of nepotism or sumthin'?



Bill

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Forgot to post these -

The White that is the basic, machine color -

The Black that I used for the infield of the plates ( name plate. threading plate, etc... ) and is the same as the Red I used on the Taft Peirce No.1 -

The Blue that was mixed at the box store and that I really liked, but had adhesion issues -

And finally the Blue that Sherwin Williams gave me, that I am having all the flow issues with -

I went and toyed with this a bit tonight. I remembered that the big gallon of SW White said to use Acetone, not paint thinner. So, I said "F it" and tried it. A lot of it. It actually worked a bit better this time. I might try even more tomorrow and see what happens. Aside from that, can anyone say why the original Blue I used ( the Behr mix ) would come off so easily like that? What do I need to do to insure that it adheres? Some kind of primer? I hate paint... I really do.

 

[rons]

I hate paint... I really do.

By mixing the Acetone you "reduced" the mixture. If the label says to use a ratio of paint to reducer then follow the directions.

Reading directions and labels reduces the hate in the world.