Paint Issues - On Topic

[Monarchist]

I hate paint... I really do.

LOL! Yer playin' wit yerself with that Acetone cut-back and all.

Keep using the wrong paint for the job, that 'hate' won't EVER change.

S-W sez that tinted cream 'o tomater-soup is good for wood, and concrete, porch furniture, and .. go use it there.
Probably works a treat in the right place.

B-M "Super Spec" is billed as a 'maintenance' paint.

Expects to NOT be the factory-applied original.

Expects to be the field-applied re-do / fix-up..

... for machinery, steel cabinets, steel stairs and railings... yadda, yadda. Not the old Cedar-wood gazebo in the back garden.

Super-Spec P22 is specifically MADE so ordinary folk can protect already aging goods without trying to re-formulate the paint, hire an itinerant powder-coater, or haul the items back to a factory dip-tank, UV lamp array, and bake-oven.

It would cost ye a b****y fortune to go a-paintin' ce-ment block garage walls and Adirondack chairs with it.

Nor do you wanna know what they charge for the metallic mica slate + clearcoat Jaguar uses over an all-aluminium - read 'moves a lot with temperature change' - motorcar body.

Much as I like the colour, wrong paint for a machine-tool.

Rust-Oleum Hammertone grey would go on easier, stick better, and last longer on a cast-iron lathe subject to lubes and coolants, and chips, and impacts, and... indignities in general.

Fit for a purpose, each paint is.

Not just these few. All of them.


Bill

 

[steve-l]

Zahnrad,
Paint is an exact science. Before you decide on any paint, you need to consider the environment that it must survive in. Then choose the paint chemistry that fits. Modern paints are much more durable than the older paints chemistries. They are also usually more expensive. In all cases never, never mix and match. Always use the manufacturer's recommendation for the entire scheme from metal prep to finish coat. Deviation invites failure.

Please also consider powder coat. Powder coat is much tougher than paint and is less expensive. Most folks do not believe this, but it is true. Powder coat is impervious to coolants, lube oil and solvents. Powder coat will survive in a chip tray for years, paint will not. Consider for a moment that in order to paint, you need a host of chemicals to wash, thin, clean or reduce the paint. You also need sand paper and other abrasives, not to mention all the elbow grease and time. All that stuff cost money and is totally avoidable with powder coat. Please note, that powder coat is not ideal in all circumstances because of the 400 degree baking requirement and it does not like sharp edges, but if a standard RAL color is chosen the end solution could be a combination of powder coat and paint. I restored a 13x40 late model (Korean) South Bend lathe 15 years ago. The entire cabinet was powder coated. The precision stuff was painted and the finish is still perfect today.

 

[Monarchist]

Please note, that powder coat is not ideal in all circumstances because of the 400 degree baking requirement and it does not like sharp edges

ummmm.. Not sayin' one CANNOT powder-coat a 10EE.... but there ain't a lot of sheet-metal IN it.

Even with motor and drive out of it, yer still close to having to heat 3,000 lbs avoir of Saint Marys Foundry's best cast-iron to 400F.. and hold it there?

Not even sure that would be a good thing for the 10EE.

Ain't as if it were a Pepperoni Pizza or Stouffer's frozen Lasagna.

Bill

 

[gadget73]

Honestly I really don't care for S-W industrial paints. Maybe thats heresey but we buy a lot of it for work. It goes on like pigmented oatmeal and looks about the same once it dries. Horrible stuff.

The XO-Rust from the hardware store lays much better and IMO gives a much better looking finish. Rustoleum works fine as well, but Rustoleum I find needs a splash of thinner. Its a bit goopy since it became "VOC Compliant". Doesn't need all that much, a capfull of acetone seems to get it done. Just enough to make it not so stiff is all you need.


I'd sort of like to see someone powdercoat a big lathe. Not so much for the end result, but the oven required and logistics of getting it in and out would be something of a feat.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Have you tried a flow additive? IIRC the additive I have for oil-based paints is called Penetrol. It's whole purpose is to help the paint self-level, which takes away those brush marks.

 

[cg285]

first post says your anal OCD and you're using a brush or roller? and don't want to invest in equipment? HF has a $10 hvlp top loader (on sale, $15 normal) that sprays real well and you can just throw it away afterwards if you don't want to clean it.

 

[Monarchist]

Have you tried a flow additive? IIRC the additive I have for oil-based paints is called Penetrol. It's whole purpose is to help the paint self-level, which takes away those brush marks.

Penetrol is one of those additives where "if SOME is good.. then LESS is better". Neither needed nor wanted in B-M P22. Other paints, YMMV.

Bill

 

[daryl bane]

If is was me,and was looking for a fast, acceptable job, I would have sanded, spray can primed, sanded again, primed again and then spray can topcoated those blue trim pieces with Rustoleum. Prepped the big stuff with PPG DP-40 epoxy primer with a quality foam roller, scuff with Scotchbrite, lay on some autobody Primer/ Surfacer with roller, sand, spot putty, repeat, then roll on autobody (ppg Deltron) acrylic urethane. Even with a good roller, it will normally flow out over a couple of hours. Usually will leave a pleasant even matt finish. If the topcoat is thick enough, after fully cured, you can wet sand it and then rub it out for a concours job.

 

[rons]

Zahnrad, I have been using DuPont Industrial Coatings brand. It can be brushed, rolled, or sprayed. I have used all the methods. It is Imron and breathing protection is required. Takes days to cure. The wait is worth it. Tough and durable when dry.

 

[steve-l]

I'd sort of like to see someone powdercoat a big lathe. Not so much for the end result, but the oven required and logistics of getting it in and out would be something of a feat.

Actually, if you wanted to do it, it would be easy given the correct facility. The guy I use has two ovens 20' x 30' x15' that you could drive a truck into. One is equipped with a hanging conveyer system and totally automatic. So size is not an issue. To do this correctly, the machine should be disassembled even for painting. His main business is large air ducts. He just fits my stuff in on the side. I would not powder coat precision machined castings, as I would not risk heat distortion, so that would exclude headstock, bed and tailstock Most everything else can be done. Even these castings are low risk, after all motorcycle engines are done all the time after final machining. He does car and truck frames for total restorations. The beauty of this is that all the parts are totally decreased and sand blasted as a matter of procedure. It saves an incredible amount of work and labor. Don't discount this, it is much less expensive than paint in most cases. When baked, the plastic powder melts and flows out leaving a excellent surface finish, which makes cleaning super easy.

 

[Modelman]

Penetrol is one of those additives where "if SOME is good.. then LESS is better". Neither needed nor wanted in B-M P22. Other paints, YMMV.

Bill

All you guys are pissing in the wind talking about twenty year old experience. There have been several rounds of VOC reductions mandated by the EPA in that time, the latest being for "architectural coatings" which includes most things sold in the big box stores. I recently was looking for "oil base enamel" here in Illinois, and was aghast to see Rustoleum cans marked "thin with acetone only." WTF? Paint isn't formulated to do a good job anymore, or even do the job at all, it just has to meet the EPA guidelines and the manufacturers take comfort in the fact that all their competitors product will be just as bad.

By the way, the technical term for the finish Zahnrad is getting is "painted with a rake."

It apparently still is possible to get decent enamels for commercial painting of steel through the major suppliers company owned stores, but it needs to be ordered, it's not on the shelf where the casual consumer might see it. I'm not sure how kindly these outlets are to someone coming in and wanting a quart of... "I don't know what it's called, but the good stuff."

My first suggestion would be to buy spray cans... that's right, self contained "rattle cans." the paint manufacturers seem to have done a better job formulating for that product, OR the package size makes it exempt from the more stringent regulations.

If it really has to be brushed, I have two suggestions:

One Shot lettering enamel: Lettering Enamels

I watched a guy brush paint an automobile with this stuff once (a $50 junker) and the resulting finish wasn't bad. While that was a while ago, One Shot's stock-in-trade is hand lettering applied by professional sign painters, and if the paint doesn't work, they have no other market.

If a harder, more scuff and chip resistant finish is required, I have heard good things about Awl Grip marine epoxy: Color Cards

I know several restoration specialists that use it in places traditional alkyd enamels used to be used.

Dennis

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

first post says your anal OCD and you're using a brush or roller? and don't want to invest in equipment? HF has a $10 hvlp top loader (on sale, $15 normal) that sprays real well and you can just throw it away afterwards if you don't want to clean it.

Been waiting for this. I can still fight it. Can't I?
To be clear - I'm being this way about the color, not the paint job as a whole. I brushed the whole lathe with White. It came out nicely for my purposes. As did the surface grinder.

As for horrible freight, I won't buy cheap chinese crap, regardless of its intent or disposable nature. Just my own personal view.
The only exception to that is when there is no other alternative. ( like a television )

 

[CountryBoy19]

Penetrol is one of those additives where "if SOME is good.. then LESS is better". Neither needed nor wanted in B-M P22. Other paints, YMMV.

Bill

That's odd... I didn't see a single place where he said he was using BM P22... am I confused?

 

[cg285]

As for horrible freight, I won't buy cheap chinese crap, regardless of its intent or disposable nature. Just my own personal view.
The only exception to that is when there is no other alternative. ( like a television )

oh, then you want what i use
LPH4-LVX HVLP 1.5 WITH MR1 EXTREME BASE GUN/REGULATOR
japanese made not no chinese crap :-)

 

[gadget73]

Actually, if you wanted to do it, it would be easy given the correct facility.

I have no objection to powder coat, its pretty awesome stuff. I just want to see the operation that can handle big stuff. Its the little kid in me that likes to see big machines.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

oh, then you want what i use
LPH4-LVX HVLP 1.5 WITH MR1 EXTREME BASE GUN/REGULATOR
japanese made not no chinese crap :-)

You missed the other posts previous to that one. Namely, these points -

I am not a paint guy in the largest stretch of the imagination, so need some input.

This is the "accent" color and as such is not so widely used. Long term members here might recall that I can be a bit OCD about some things and downright anal about some of those that catch my attention. Unfortunately, this seems to have have become one of them... < sigh >

And...

rhoward, I appreciate the detailed information. Unfortunately, it shows exactly why I do not wish to go down that road. I admire you guys that have the dedication, time, and skill to do so. Member Daryl Bane comes to mind. That's not me though.

I have not the time, nor the inclination to spend that kind of money, or that kind of effort to spraying, much less have the room or inclination to do a proper booth for it. There's just so much time in the day.

This is a brush job, through and through. A working recondition. Not a restoration.

I do thank you for the effort though.

I am not averse to the cost. I am averse to the process. More betterer?

 

[Monarchist]

am I confused?

Which day?

 

[rons]

oh, then you want what i use
LPH4-LVX HVLP 1.5 WITH MR1 EXTREME BASE GUN/REGULATOR
japanese made not no chinese crap :-)

Very nice indeed.

I made cfm measurements with three different quality paint guns using one of those gun handle regulators shown in the link.



The cfm was reduced by 12.5% across all three guns. One was a mini gun, the other two were full size. All are HVLP. I designed and machined this out of stainless bar. Solves the cfm reduction. Have to adjust pressure at the wall regulator but it is no big deal. If the gun has a built in air control knob I set it wide open. Then in the booth I can turn it down if necessary.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Trying to play catch-up, here. Busy day ...

By mixing the Acetone you "reduced" the mixture. If the label says to use a ratio of paint to reducer then follow the directions. Reading directions and labels reduces the hate in the world.

LOL. Some hate is productive. Keeps you real paint guys in work. This SW Blue does not have ANYTHING about thinning, on it. So I admittedly took a leap and used the Acetone because the gallon of the SW White says to thin with ONLY Acetone.

Truth be told, it actually seems to have helped some. I am going to try and play with it a bit more this evening before locking up.

LOL! Yer playin' wit yerself with that Acetone cut-back and all.
Keep using the wrong paint for the job, that 'hate' won't EVER change.

LOL. Color me a hater. Oddly, this doesn't have the same gratifying result as the other might...

To be fair, in my acknowledged ignorance, I asked for their ( SW's ) assistance and after being VERY clear about what I am doing, this is exactly what they decided upon and recommended.

Zahnrad,
Paint is an exact science. Before you decide on any paint, you need to consider the environment that it must survive in. Then choose the paint chemistry that fits.

< snip a bit of helpful information >

Thanks, Steve. I get it, and I do understand. It's just that I honestly don't _want_ to know that much about paint. I have SO many other "Ooh! Shiny!" to consume my time and efforts that there is just no room on the plate for more fodder.

Now, to be fair - I have used the SW White, the SW Red, and the SW Black shown in the photos on a lot of other square inches and have had no real issues to speak of, save those created in my own ignorance. And even those were readily solved. So it is not the SW paints that those are comprised of in my estimation.

That said, I do realize my own ignorance here, so please correct me if I am incorrect on that.

To your point - I would absolutely consider powder. I am VERY familiar with it, have used it for decades, paid for it, and even done it myself. I love powder. And getting this Blue makes it a non option. ( that OCD thing rears its head ) ( I want this Blue )

Have you tried a flow additive? IIRC the additive I have for oil-based paints is called Penetrol. It's whole purpose is to help the paint self-level, which takes away those brush marks.

I have not. Until you wrote this, I was not even aware of such an animal. I will look for it shortly. Thank you.

More later, boys. And thank you for all the input. I know I do not make it easy to assist me with my quirks and ignorance.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I have not. Until you wrote this, I was not even aware of such an animal. I will look for it shortly. Thank you.

More later, boys. And thank you for all the input. I know I do not make it easy to assist me with my quirks and ignorance.

I hadn't heard of it until a few months ago. I've been using it on my LeBlond restoration (the one needing the gears we emailed back & forth about). I've been happy with it. It's basically the VOC's (plus some other things) that are missing from the new "low VOC" paints. Add VOC's back in and the paint flows a bit better and doesn't stiffen up so quickly.