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Paint Material Advice for Machine Tool Restoration

tubeandplate

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Location
Springfield, TN
I have been on the forum for I think over 3 years....I've searched and read about paint scattered hither and yon here on the forum.

Possibly this could be a good subject for a sticky....it would be nice to have one thread prominently available to all and easily found that would be a clearing house of experiences and info on this subject....or at least I think so.

I am going to spend my "spare time" this winter tearing down, refurbishing, and cosmetically restoring a couple of lathes....may last longer than this winter, but at least my plans are to start on them.....the first 2 aren't operational at the moment anyway.....


Before I get the electrolysis tank set up (one machine is half way apart, one other will be soon after I pick it up in a few weeks), I wanted to start a thread soliciting experiences and thoughts on paints...the actual materials.

Meaning, brands, types, primers, etc...and what materials are best for cast iron and steel in "fluxuating temperature" environments that involve exposure to abrasion (metal swarf) and oil and solvents.

I am not new to painting and materials, but if I'm going to the trouble of disassembly and painting after rust removal, I don't want to have to think the paint itself won't last and be a reason for a future teardown too soon....:willy_nilly:

I have read in the Monarch department and others about folks using cyano/super glue type paint materials.....

I know a few things about Imron and other 2 part aviation paints...epoxy coatings, etc...

I like the idea of a one part "tractor" paint for easy of use/cleanup/fumes...AND "touchup-ability" in the future.

Pat Black and others in this department have used Tractor Supply synthetic enamels....that look GREAT. Seems to me this kind of paint would touch up easier and be more flexible in temp changes than the epoxies and cyanos...??

I guess my querry is motivated mostly by my desires...a good lasting paint that will stand up to machine tool use that is a one part product that is relatively easily available off the shelf and not terribly expensive.

One motivation for starting this thread is that in searching this forum for this subject, I ran across one individual who posted that he went to all the trouble of disassembly/clean up/paint/reassembly, only to find mediocre results....to which, upon his return to the paint supplier to query about this was told "oh yeah, you SHOULD have used our higher end line for that purpose"......

Yikes.....:angry:

I'd sure like to avoid that situation in my upcoming endeavors....


SO.....

Not being interested in an 2 part or cyano based "space age" (ie expensive and tedious to use) product.....


Will anyone care to comment, share their stories, and/or their experiences with different materials for paints and primers in the one part reasonably priced categories for me?????

I intend to use Eastwood's self etching auto primer as a first coat...possibly followed by another primer if topcoat compatibility is an issue, and a one part oil based enamel....urethane, synthectic, whatever....

I will be using Penetrol and a brushes....and bondo/glazing where necessary.

...at least this is my plan until I get better advice or suggestions.

I guess the most coveted posts I'm after are from folks who are able to tell me whether a reasonably priced off the shelf "tractor" type paint that they have used has proved to hold up well over some (?) time, and/or any problems or objections someone has had with a similar product currenlty available.

My gut feeling tells me that a mid to high quality paint that is INTENDED to be used on farm equipment and tractors SHOULD be an excellent choice for a big old lathe.......:confused:

So...one burning question...are the Tractor Supply Co. (TSC) off the shelf paints worthy for the task, and would they offer durability/longevity and a decent price???

A southeastern paint supplier I have a lot of experience with, albeit small metal and house type use, is Porter Paints, now owned by PPG, who also owns Ditzler. Their (Porter) products are excellent, but not sure that the off the shelf/non-order products are up to the machine tool useage....

Anyone????


Don't be shy, and thanks.....:)

John Oder....I know you have been painting some machines over the last year or so....????? What are you using?????


Chris
 

Tom A

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Location
NW Florida
One restoration , in particular , left a lasting impression on me :

DSC02877_s.jpg


I believe this lathe was painted with Tractor Supply paint .
If you are able to do a better job than that , with ANY paint , I'd have to be impressed .

Tom

PS - Sorry Chris , I didn't realize you had specifically mentioned Pat's Hendey .
But it sure DOES look great !
 
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tubeandplate

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Location
Springfield, TN
Thanks Tom...yes, this is Pat Black's machine I referenced in my intro post....and that's the one I mentioned that looked GREAT....

Maybe Pat will chime in on exactly which product it was, and how he thinks it is/will hold up......he didn't get very specific in the restoration thread about which paint it actually was other than "TSC synthetic enamel"....of which, I'm sure, there are several "lines" or quality levels of....and does "synthetic" mean "urethane".....????

These are the sorts of things I would like to hear about.

Pat's restoration is one that got my attention that apparently (hopefully) one does not have to use expensive paints or tedious to use products....

John Oder...you were invloved in Pat's thread and his paint color/mix coding...and mentioned you were painting something as well.....curious for your thoughts as well, obviously.


Chris
 

cro-magnum

Plastic
Joined
Aug 31, 2010
Location
Phoenix
Yes that is beautiful. I no nothing about what to use on a machine tool but I cant think of anyone who might be harder on paint than a farmer/rancher. My grandfather and I used to restore and pull antique tractors which we painted with synthetic enamel. Dragging a chain over the draw bar never seemed to harsh, or using the axle as a step to get on the tractor. I will be using synthetic enamel on my future projects.

Travis
 

peter

Titanium
Joined
Mar 20, 2001
Location
New England
There are at least three schools of though when it comes to painting and that might lend itself to three separate discussions. And a lot varies with the age of the machine, from a sin to apply any paint (1820-1870) to later machines that are a hopeless mess and scream for paint. A subjective call.

1. Authentic Paint. Not better, not worse. Right or proper color. It might not be the the best paint, but it will be easy touchup and look either like new or dull faded (semigloss/satin)look. Black Rustoleum maybe a good choice sometimes IMHO. I use a brush. Some guys mixing and making there own paint and fillers. Can be a really big deal.

2. Highest Quality finish. Rugged and beautiful. Perhaps epoxy paint that can be almost impossible to remove, but hopefully chip resistant. Authentic is secondary to looks and durable. Application maybe critical. Although, I used some top end tractor paint on an IHC hit miss engine and still found I got excellent results with a brush. Right primer and followed instruction to the "T". That maybe the exception for hi end paint. That engine was painted GOD awful color with iron hard epoxy paint. I was cursing the former owner. Had he only used the right colors, I would have been fine.

3. Get it done practical. Rustoleum, maybe a good close match or just using what color happens to be left over from another job. Surface prep and proper application are still important. When to apply second coat depends on paint type. Still requires the proper primer, if needed.

Here is a forum that talks about painting old iron:
Paint Shop - SmokStak

The above website deals primarily with old engines and the subject of painted can get heated. And a lot of sour grapes with old time owners who discover that the engine they lovingly repainted are worth 1/2 the price of barn fresh unpainted engine. Rusty as found examples. So; it is a separate topic and lot of good information. Much more than a single sticky.

Museums are doing things a lot different today than years ago. Very few museums are into this like new restoration as we see in old exhibits at great places like Henry Ford museum. Again it depends what you have, how old, what is the current state of the finish. And your own personal ideas.
 

johnoder

Diamond
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Location
Houston, TX USA
Haven't done any painting since pieces of the L&S that Ken (4GSR) bought, and that was plainest of plain jane Rustoleum.

I have mixed up Rock Moss Green from Pat's "formula", but have yet to use it. Though bought at TSC, it is a known brand.

I do know from the old car hobby days that anything other than brushing will never be again done here - spraying being the largest waste of time, equipment and material I ever went through.

I also in that process learned that some of this "super glue" (how apt!) type paint can just plain hurt or kill you unless you invest in supplied air protective equipment - more waste.

To sum up - if Pat can make them look like that with a brush, that is the only way to go for me.

John Oder
 
I'm not a restoration freak and a lot of my very functional machines (rescraped ways, reworked mechanicals) are pretty darn ugly. However, on the rare ocasion i take one to parts and bare metal, i do prefer to prime with epoxy. This is for 2 reasons. First, of course, is the high confidence factor for sticking and for toughness. Second, at least for automotive epoxy primers, is fast set. You can hose the bare casting to prevent rust, do several operations of filling and feathering in one day, and shoot a top primer coat and not worry about the build up of coats not drying for a few weeks. Within reason, it will all be good the following day.

I don't like the super dooper urethanes, etc, for the health hazards. Through ignorance despite the fact that my dad was a chemist, I breathed way too much bad stuff as a kid and in early years including asbestos. (My job was to keep the coal fired boiler going and maintained, including regular patching of the asbestos lagging. Can still remember the pretty dust motes in the subeams through the cellar windows while mixing it. Melted hundreds of pounds of lead in 5 gal buckets over open fires and breathed a lot of it. And then all the industrial chemicals now known to the state of CA to be carcinogenic, that we had in carboys all over the shop. My dad's take was "it won't hurt you if you don't drink too much at once"). Anyway, I digress. But prefer not to use paints that need a supplied air hood.

I like the tractor paint with hardener (urethane) additive for woodwhacking equipment over epoxy primer, but don't know how it holds up to coolant, say.

As far as costs, epoxy primer is almost cheap, if got from the potable water supply industry. About $65 for a 2 gal kit, (50:50 mix ratio) IIRC. Half the price of automotive, for twice the quantity. Plus the water tank coating stuff is heavier bodied. The downside, is the water tank stuff takes a good 8 hours to set, overnight is better. So it is not quite as convenient. But it fills small blemishes better than automotive, and flows out better for you brush wielders. If you are set on urethanes, the water tank painting industry sells those, too, for top coats, but the color chart is more limited. I have no experience with the uethanes.

smt
 

George Andreasen

Stainless
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Location
Alturas, California
I've done work similar to Pat Black's Hendey in the past, but it's labor intensive to say the least. Don't get me wrong, I like the beautiful result but I'm taking a different path on the Hendey I'm rebuilding now.

I discovered quite by accident that the new Krylon Fusion paint, although designed for plastic, works very well indeed. Only available in spray cans but it goes on well, dries almost immediately and requires NO PRIMER. Shoot it and forget it. Okay, swell. It's fast to use but to my suprise it seems very tough and oil resistant to boot. One can did my entire 6' bed....two coats, with enough left to paint some smaller parts. They give you a lot of paint in that can!

I chose satin black and it has a slight gloss that looks nice when offset by the machined or polished parts. Since this will be a "working lathe" the color will hide or blend any staining. As I learned from painting a locomotive years ago, "black always looks black" :).
 

tubeandplate

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Location
Springfield, TN
Marcibb-Yes indeedy...a great example or standard to shoot for if you have the time...Pat's machine would be at home in the entrance hall or living room!

Travis-This is what I was thinking...thanks for the confirmation

Peter-

Great response....nothing too museum like or collectable here for #1 "Authentic" treatment....yet....Logan 820, Monarch A, CW, etc...Practical sounds the way to go...I'll look at the SmokStak link


John-When you say you bought it at TSC but it's a known brand, WHAT BRAND???? Is it actually a TSC brand or another name that TSC carries?

I concur on the brushing and super glue stuff

Stephen, Peter, and John-

This is what I figured on the cyano/super glue stuff...and spraying...


George...thanks for the tips...nice surprise on the Krylon stuff...



In General:

Are urethane enamels the same thing as when you guys and Pat Black mention "synthetic enamels"? Or are these 2 different families of material?

If not, what are the differences?

Are both one part paints?

Or is the urethane additive Stephen mentions something that you add to synthetic enamel to make it urethane (harder?) enamel????


Stephen-Are the epoxy primers you describe compatible undercoats for this family of "TSC" urethane/synthetic enamels, or should I use the appropriate primer for them OVER the epoxy primer?

What tractor paint are you adding this to? A "synthetic enamel" that has an approprate urethane addidive available? This additive is a harder as you say...to make the final dried result more durable???

When you say "tractor paint" are you speaking of the same thing as John Oder?

And just so I'm clear, and not overdoing this (too late I guess)...

When we all say tractor paint, we mean a one part, oil base, enamel (either synthetic or urethane...and I still don't understand if these are the same things?)....right?


Chris
 

kpotter

Diamond
Joined
Apr 30, 2001
Location
tucson arizona usa
Are you going to use the machine? I worked for a machinerey dealer and I painted at least a couple of hundred machines in the years I worked for him and we used oil based enamel from sherwin williams. I would pressure wash the machine then sand it and then red putty then tape then just basic primer and then sand it and paint it I would paint at least 3 machines at a time. All of my machines are painted this way and are used everyday and they hold up fine even with cutting oil all over them. Those monarch guys are nuts, it is a machine not a shrine to precision.
 

floridadon

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Location
FL
I have gotten where I use a spray can of cold galvanizing compound as the primer. I do this as it stops any problems that I used to have with rust coming through the finish. It always seemed that no matter how well I brushed a previously rusted surface, it at some time would show up under the paint.
 

Rosenfelder

Aluminum
Joined
Aug 5, 2009
Location
Southern New Hampshire
Paint Finish

I rebuild a production wood-turning lathe once and accidentally gave it a beautiful, and apparently durable paint job.
I brushed on two coats of the same oil-based enamel used to paint the wooden tool handles we made (1980's).
After the smaller lathe components were painted, I was in a hurry to see the results, so I moved them overnight into the walk-in drying oven used for processing the painted wooden handles.
An emergency came up and I forgot about the rebuild project. My painted parts sat in the drying oven for several weeks, instead of overnight.
When the enamel-finishing man asked me when I was going to get my "[email protected]#$%&" parts out of his oven, I retreived my parts.
They had a shinny, rock hard finish, much better than the lathe bed, that hadn't been baked.
I thought that I reinvented the 'baked enamel finish'.
J.R.
 

johnoder

Diamond
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Location
Houston, TX USA
Single part. Oil base. "Synthetic" to me means only that I won't find any turpentine, linseed oil or lead driers in it - but I could of course be wrong.

John Oder
 

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Mike C.

Diamond
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Location
Birmingham, AL
Imron and all the similar urethanes contain iso-cyanates.... mean stuff.

I have painted several machines with ICI industrial alkyd enamel... just a good heavy duty oil based paint. Flows out nicely with a brush, hardens fairly quickly and is extremely durable. My old provider (AT&T) puled the plug on my webpages, so all the pics are gone, but I am sure some have seen the pics of my 12X Steptoe-Western shaper, the 1918 L&S selective head lathe, the Fosdick radial and other machines I painted with that stuff. It's also real cheap, about $30 a gallon, and a gallon of gray did a VN6, a 20x72 American Pacemaker, two medium sized shapers and some other stuff. The black goes a little quicker, the L&S and Fosdick radial got almost the entire gallon.
 

tubeandplate

Aluminum
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Location
Springfield, TN
kpotter-I'm one of "those Monarch guys"...and I AM :nutter: ....but not because I want a nice paint job :) .....I appreciate your advice, and they are points well taken....I do have a tendancy to overdue things sometimes.

You may have painted your machines "in situ", but I'm taking the ones I'm talking about here down to nuts and bolts, painting the parts, and reassembling after "re-manufacturing" any worn out stuff. If I'm taking them apart, that's a great time to do a nice paint job...I think...to my way of working, just seems in the long run the easiest nicest thing to do.

My point is, any machine I do this to, I'm doing to ONCE...and ONLY ONCE, so my paint questions are mostly about longevity...the ability to stand up to my light usage for the rest of my life and work in my shop...just asking around for experiences from others based on this viewpoint and concern.

I will have to say, I'm proud of my equipment, I use some of it to make a living, and I want clients who see my equipment to think that I take pride in my work and therefore, their projects....plus, I'm ....:nutter: or maybe, just a bit of an obsessive...perfectionist....:eek:

Once I paint one, I don't want the next time it needs something to be because the paint is worn out or flaking or couldn't stand up to oil....that's all.


Floridadon-I forgot about that spry cold galvanizing! Thanks for reminding me about that stuff....that an ingenious use of that stuff that I wouldn't have thought of.

Rosenfelder-Nice story....great result....I'll have to look into a large pizza oven or something like you had access to....:eek: I used to live in Effingham...near Wolfboro/Laconia...looks like that's where you are...BTW...I LOVE that BIG Putnam of yours...I've drooled and "wowed" over your posted pics of it many, many times....that is one neat machine!!!!

John O-Is that the same product/label that Pat Black used??? I've PM'ed him several times and posted on his thread about getting together (we are about an hour 15 min apart), but no answer yet. That stuff OUGHT to be pretty fuel/oil/solvent resistant on a lathe? I'm familiar with that brand....thanks.

dinosaur and Mike C.-I only knew about Imron when my father painted one of his airplanes in it in the late 70's...spray work of course. I do remember someone dented a wingtip on his Navion a few years later, and the glassy/glossy/wet look Imron broke like an eggshell under the dented AL and fell off....but I just remember the FBO rats all gooing over "ooohh...Imron..."; maybe it was just a new product at the time or something.

Sounds like I don't want it for other reasons you mention that I'm concerned about as well.

I have read about your suggestion of alkyd enamels from Peter's posted link above...it's one material I'm considering studying when I start paint shopping.


Chris
 








 
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