Perpetual motion machine-what to do-what to do--

[Bluechipx]

I have a friend that claims his dad left plans for a perpetual motion machine to him when he died. He is excited and certain it will work and he wants me to build it for him. I reluctantly agreed to help with it but I told him in no uncertain terms that I feel he is throwing money away. Every time we make another part he just glows as he sees the completion nearing. It's the usual magnet device with a few twists. $400 so far for alum tool and jig plate and probably as much for McMaster Carr stuff he bought. I'm charging him very little for my machine time and the longer I drag it out the longer he can be confident in his design. He made a crude wooden model that he claimed "almost" worked and he is positive a more precision one will work. I told him the patent office won't even look at perpetual motion devices but it didn't slow him down a bit. Any advice on how other machinists would have handled this one?

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

I have a brother that calls from time to time to tell me about the latest set of perpetual motion machine plans he has found on the internet, seems I'm always repeating myself on how/why it won't work. So far I think I've talked him out of purchasing them, but won't be surprised the day he shows up with a set. Now if dear old dad had left them, that would be another story. As long as he is paying, humor him.

 

[thermite]

Any advice on how other machinists would have handled this one?

Uhh..

"Not at all" work for yah?

That ain't "machinist work", Pilgrim.

Psychiatry and/or Chaplain or Social-Worker turf, rather.

Not really any sort of kindness to "make parts" to perpetuate a delusion.

 

[Ox]

I have a friend that claims his dad left plans for a perpetual motion machine to him when he died. He is excited and certain it will work and he wants me to build it for him. I reluctantly agreed to help with it but I told him in no uncertain terms that I feel he is throwing money away. Every time we make another part he just glows as he sees the completion nearing. It's the usual magnet device with a few twists. $400 so far for alum tool and jig plate and probably as much for McMaster Carr stuff he bought. I'm charging him very little for my machine time and the longer I drag it out the longer he can be confident in his design. He made a crude wooden model that he claimed "almost" worked and he is positive a more precision one will work. I told him the patent office won't even look at perpetual motion devices but it didn't slow him down a bit. Any advice on how other machinists would have handled this one?

Yeeeeeaaaahhh.....

Been there.
Not as deep as you, but been there....

It sounds like this isn't going to break the bank before reality hits.

Good luck!



Even seen something even worse recently. Not sure if it was youtube, or one of those "Alaskan Bush People" shows as I was flicking past, but they were trying to git a battery to run a motor to run an alternator, to charge the battery and have extra power left over to run a pump or some such.

1/4 hp motor run 1/2 hp alternator = positive energy!

I don't have a clue what to doo with these folks!
And it's on TV!


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Trboatworks]

Proof with mathematics before he cuts a single part.

Tell him to hire a mathematician not a machinist..

 

[michiganbuck]

My buddy and his dad built a magnet motor back in the 70s for an inventor, It would pull really hard but going past each pole it tried to pull the other way. What was needed was an insulator for magnetism to shield the opposite pole. Perhaps some rare earth material would fill this need.

"almost" worked

 

[Bill D]

Ni idea how his machine is supposed to work. it is kinda possible to make what seems like a perpetual motion machine. One powered by tides or changes in air pressure that occur in nature. I realize these forces stop when the earth stops spinning so not really perpetual but they can run a lifetime or more.
Bill D

 

[J_R_Thiele]

I hope he is not a good friend, because he is probably going to be an ex- friend.

Had you asked before any parts were made, the answer would be to decline to make any.

Its not clear to me if the design is one his father bought from someone else- or something his father designed himself.
Hopefully it was a design his father got from someone else.
If it is his fathers design things may get "complicated". You may be blamed for the failure of the mechanism to work as designed. At some point it may be worth asking your friend if he is sure the plans were complete. Is there a page missing? Could it be that there was vital information left out on purpose by his father as a security mechanism?

At this point your best bet is to stop "dragging it out", get the parts made (and well made) so he can get it built and then have to deal with its not working. As you have noticed- "dragging it out" will make him more confident in the design. It also gives more opportunity for other thoughts to occur to him- that it took so much time because you were stealing or selling the design- or needed the time to figure out how to make the parts in a way that it cannot work...

 

[Joe Gwinn]

I have a brother that calls from time to time to tell me about the latest set of perpetual motion machine plans he has found on the internet, seems I'm always repeating myself on how/why it won't work. So far I think I've talked him out of purchasing them, but won't be surprised the day he shows up with a set. Now if dear old dad had left them, that would be another story. As long as he is paying, humor him.

Bill monthly.


War story: Perhaps this will help. In the 1970s, a colleague found such a purported perpetual motion machine, and when informed that it could not work, he challenged me to prove that the thing would not work. It was one of these flailing-magnet designs, with permanent magnets taking a very complicated path as the machine rotor rotates, as described in the patent. If it's patented it must work, right? Well, the Patent Office long ago gave up on fighting such patents.

Anyway, I said that it would take me a full-time month to do such an analysis, but it was not necessary, because electric and magnetic fields are both conservative (meaning in Physics that they act like perfect, lossless springs). It therefor does not matter what paths those flying magnets take, and when they make a closed loop, the net energy change is exactly zero. (In Physics, this is known as path independence.)

How do we know that electric and magnetic fields are conservative (whatever that means), then?

Because we can see the stars at night. Puzzled silence. What does that have to do with a motor?

Well, light consists of intertwined changing electric and magnetic fields passing energy back and forth at one hundred trillion times per second (10^14 Hz), and that light can have been traveling for a billion years in hard vacuum on the way to Earth. If there was the slightest deviation from exact conservation of energy here, the sky would either be totally black (the slightest loss per cycle), or blazing white (the slightest gain).

There can be neither loss nor gain, within a tolerance far too small to measure. And far too small to power a motor doing useful work.

 

[CarbideBob]

By doing it at a cheap rate you are an enabler.
Long ago a mentor told me.
"There are rules of physics. If you break these rules you are no longer allowed to live in this universe."
Not sure at what age I tried to build the motor/generator thing. It made so much sense at the time. Just a little more gearing.,......
Bob

 

[SAG 180]

People are looking at the wrong part of these plans: the finished device described in the plans. The perpetual part is in the selling of said plans for a small profit in perpetuity.

The more elaborate versions involve buying the plans from some "Professor" typically with a european accent and later getting a visit from two or more fake MIBs who try to steal the plans back. The professor then hits you up for investment money to complete his device.

 

[3t3d]

Bill monthly.



Because we can see the stars at night. Puzzled silence. What does that have to do with a motor?

Well, light consists of intertwined changing electric and magnetic fields passing energy back and forth at one hundred trillion times per second (10^14 Hz), and that light can have been traveling for a billion years in hard vacuum on the way to Earth. If there was the slightest deviation from exact conservation of energy here, the sky would either be totally black (the slightest loss per cycle), or blazing white (the slightest gain).

There can be neither loss nor gain, within a tolerance far too small to measure. And far too small to power a motor doing useful work.

Almost....
Hubble first got credit for this. Farther distance sources have more "red shift" A photon has a lower energy level if it shifts down in color.
Not enough to make the sky dark either, but enough to measure.

 

[Bluechipx]

Finishing the 'machine' has been weighing on the guy for probably over twenty years, now he has the determination to actually follow through with it. In the end I see him tweaking and adjusting every little part with success just out of reach. His occupation is teaching different musical instruments with eighty or more customers. He is well educated (maybe in everything except physics!) and has the money to pursue this lifelong dream to its end. Maybe this is the way it has to end with a dose of reality. Actually I've seen many designs, some on youtube, that are such clever designs that I can't see why they wouldn't work if I didn't know better. His device should be finished in less than a week, I'll post the results and a picture if I get his permission to do so.

 

[atomarc]

As my wife often tells me.."don't spend the customers money". Keep doing what he wants...you're just the messenger.

Stuart

 

[john.k]

I had a guy was amazed at all the junk I had ......his theory was that one air compressor could run another air compressor in a fixed loop indefinitely.....I sold him tons of stuff ,but didnt offer any opinions or advice.....anyhoo,I didnt have time ,cause I was working on my anti gravity engine!

 

[L Vanice]

Some decades ago, I let a stranger into my shop to sell him something. He was so impressed with my obvious ability to "make anything" that he disclosed his idea for a perpetual motion bicycle. It involved an air motor to drive a wheel and a compressor actuated by the rider's backside bouncing up and down on the seat as bumps were traversed. I never saw him again, so I did not have to deal with questions about sharing my new riches with him.

Larry

 

[Kevin T]

I thought it had been done! I used to geek on the idea but gave up when I heard it had been done. Something with rare earth magnets and a rod that pulsed back and forth. I am surprised and now need to consult the google to see if I was fooled...of course this is entirely possible and I am OK wth that.

 

[Biolog]

Glad that the ghost of PT Barnum is alive and well. You will never convince a true beliver that this is claptrap. A quick method out of this could be: Carefully cut 18 inch piece of 1 inch pipe. Tape likeness of Isaac Newton near end of pipe. Hit "friend" that suggests you help make the magic parts. Repeat as necessary.

 

[GregSY]

It's interesting that the majority of you think perpetual motion cannot exist. In fact, all of you seem to think that.

I have news for you - your ideas are outdated and so is your understanding of physics.

In the past 5 years, the greatest minds of our time have been hard at work inventing the new sciences that will take us into the green new future.

Physics and its bastard step-sister mathematics might disallow perpetual motion; but Emotional Physics and Emotional Mathematics certainly make it possible. Fact-based sciences, it was discovered, are very limiting. When we add emotions, though, anything is possible.

If you believe, still, that perpetual motion is impossible....throw a fit, get offended, and call anyone who stands in your way a racist. Then...perpetual motion exists.

The real problem with perpetual motion, though, is it is both inherently racist and is a major cause of climate change. So while it does exist, we need to stop talking about it.

 

[1yesca]

I had a guy was amazed at all the junk I had ......his theory was that one air compressor could run another air compressor in a fixed loop indefinitely.....I sold him tons of stuff ,but didnt offer any opinions or advice.....anyhoo,I didnt have time ,cause I was working on my anti gravity engine!

wild wood seeds . he was up there on a windmill naked as a jay bird i ask him how he got up there he told me he flew up there he was about half crazy i had to fly up there and get him down