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Phase Perfect for multiple machines

qpblades

Plastic
Joined
Sep 11, 2022
I'm trying to plan out power for a shop I want to have built. It'll have a single-phase 200A main panel and I'll be using 4 three-phase machines: 15 HP Haas Super Mini Mill, 7.5HP air compressor, 5 HP dust collector, and 3 HP surface grinder (all 220/230V). Only 2 of those machines will be running at the same time (Haas and air compressor or dust collector and surface grinder) and ideally, I'd like to have them all plugged into a receptacle. I'm thinking of getting a 20HP Phase Perfect converter. Is a 100A subpanel sufficient for the converter? Can multiple machines be directly wired to it or do I need 4 separate circuit breakers?
 
7.5HP air compressor, 5 HP dust collector, and 3 HP surface grinder (all 220/230V).
The Haas will run on a phase converter with no problems. Almost everything in the Haas that uses the three phase has its own capacitors to fill the power gaps. The sustained demand of the Haas is light compared to the other things on your list.

I would not run an air compressor on a phase converter. Buy a single phase motor for it if it's a super nice compressor, otherwise replace it. Compressors need actual horsepower and have high startup load. Trying to supply that with a phase converter is going to be brutal on the converter and wiring.

Ditto for the dust collector: startup demand is more moderate than the compressor but climbs with RPM and the load is sustained.

Surface grinder is probably not going to see much actual load. I'd bet that would run on a static converter and you'd likely never know the difference.
 
If it's a screw compressor or at least soft start it should be ok. I have no problem running a 7.5 screw comp and CNC mill at the same time on a 20hp gen2 phase perfect. For years I had them both tied into it but then I needed to add the cnc lathe and decided to put a 3ph panel the PP feeds. I kinda wish it was a 30hp size instead of a 20 but it does the job, I just don't run the screw up and lathe at same time as sometimes the lathe gets unhappy with a low voltage when screw comp kicks on.

5hp 3phase dust collector? are you machining wood or composite or something?
 
I see. My thought process with having the air compressor and dust collector be three-phase was it would be more current efficient to free up more for my smaller machines/tools. But that makes sense just to have them dedicated to the single-phase power supplied by the system and not have it jump through extra hoops.
 
The Haas will run on a phase converter with no problems.
Pretty sure the "Super" requires three phase.

I would do the above recommendations with switching everything you can to single phase or VFD's, but still set up a three phase output breaker panel. It will make adding machines down the road a lot easier.
 
Pretty sure the "Super" requires three phase.
Yes, I agree and understand. It's just that the Haas isn't as hungry for that third leg of power. The vector drive has its own capacitors that provide some smoothing. If it has the big coolant pump I think that's three phase. Most of it is soft loads and easier for the converter than things like air compressors.
 
Yes, I agree and understand. It's just that the Haas isn't as hungry for that third leg of power. The vector drive has its own capacitors that provide some smoothing.
Interesting, I'd be nervous about burning something out with only two legs.
 
Interesting, I'd be nervous about burning something out with only two legs.
No, I'm not saying that it will run on two legs. What I'm saying is that the phase converter has sole responsibility of generating that third leg. When there's a sudden spike in load, that's the one where voltage drops off. That's what makes it hard for steady loads like air compressors or dust collectors. It's always the one lagging behind.

The Haas is not as demanding of the third leg. It sags less and has basically no consequences to the running of the machine.
 
No, I'm not saying that it will run on two legs. What I'm saying is that the phase converter has sole responsibility of generating that third leg. When there's a sudden spike in load, that's the one where voltage drops off. That's what makes it hard for steady loads like air compressors or dust collectors. It's always the one lagging behind.

The Haas is not as demanding of the third leg. It sags less and has basically no consequences to the running of the machine.
Gotcha. The regular (non Super) MiniMill will run off single phase, so I thought you were talking about some black magic I hadn't heard of to make regular three phase machines run off single phase without a converter.
 
You guys need to read the OP. He's talking about a phase perfect DIGITAL phase converter. Not a rotary. It generated true 3 phase balanced leg outputs and will allow machines that dump their regen braking back onto the lines to work. I have 6 of them in my shop and they are freaking fantastic, but high priced.

I am running a 15hp Kaiser air center and several smaller machines on one 20hp converter. I also have a 10 hp backup compressor on this same panel, but never have needed it since I bought the Kaiser. My 5 mills and lathes also have dedicated 10 or 15 HP units as needed. I also have 2) 60 HP rotary converters that run my waterjet, press brake and all of my Fanuc and Hurco machines that will use regular wild leg generated three phase.

OP - a 20 HP PP will run what you want no problem. However, I would buy a small 4 place 3 phase panel off amazon for a hundred bucks and have each machine on their own breaker. My 20 HP converter is fed with a 125 Amp breaker out of one of my 2) 200A panels in the building. The converter feeds a small panel that runs the Kaiser, the backup comp, a helical head wood planer in my woodshop and a SCMI 37" wide belt sander in the woodshop. Obviously, it cannot run all of that crap at once, hence the breakers.
 
You guys need to read the OP. He's talking about a phase perfect DIGITAL phase converter. Not a rotary
I know, and there's still no reason to run things that are readily available as single phase through a Phase Perfect. If it's a big screw compressor that's one thing, but there's lots of 7.5hp single phase compressors available.
 
I installed a PhasePerfect 30 hp digital phase converter in 2004.
I feed it from a 200amp main panel with a 100 amp single phase breaker.
The PP feeds a 3 phase panel.
Everything is wired conventionally from this panel.

It has been running:
5 HP 3phase Air compressor and Haas VF0E daily for almost 20 years now.
It will occasionally run a Haas TM-1, small surface grinder and a 220 single phase lathe at the same time (in addition to the AC and big Haas).
Never had an issue.
FYI the 220 single phase is wired off the two "pass thru" legs.
 
You could run the compressor off of a VFD.
I have a 7.5 hp set up like that and can control the soft start.

Does it need to have a compression release on the pump cylinders? I've been thinking about putting together the same set up and using an electric solenoid to close a compression release once the motor reaches running rpm.
 
I installed a PhasePerfect 30 hp digital phase converter in 2004.
I feed it from a 200amp main panel with a 100 amp single phase breaker.
The PP feeds a 3 phase panel.
Everything is wired conventionally from this panel.

It has been running:
5 HP 3phase Air compressor and Haas VF0E daily for almost 20 years now.
It will occasionally run a Haas TM-1, small surface grinder and a 220 single phase lathe at the same time (in addition to the AC and big Haas).
Never had an issue.
FYI the 220 single phase is wired off the two "pass thru" legs.
What size breakers are in that 3-phase subpanel?
 
Lott
I honestly don't remember why the two pass thru legs. Maybe just out of sense of caution and because "I could".

I do remember trying to wire a 120v outlet. Could not do this as the 3 legs did not reference to ground/Common.

QPblades
50amp - VF0E
30 amp - TM-1
20 amp - Compressor
20 amp - grinder

Also, I made sure all machines (specifically compressor) were off before turning on the PP converter for the day. So the PP had no load at startup.

Nice thing about this setup was when I moved the shop from a rental bay to my garage, the 100 amp feed breaker came out of the rental unit's panel, and the PP and downstream panel all came with me.
Including all wiring and conduit I installed in the rental bay.

Simply plug the 100 amp breaker ( I lucked out, it was the same style) into my panel at the house,
feed the PP in the garage, hang the 3ph panel, cut shorter the conduit and wiring and back in business.

I was up and running a day and a half after the the rigger left.
 
Had a similar setup as capecod. 30HP phase perfect feeding a designated 3 phase panel for machines. I wired the PP per their instructions, then ran 3 wires to a panel which was grounded independently with a ground rod. Three wires and a ground to each machine. Even ran 110 outlets at the machines from the 3 phase.

Was running an Okuma M560V, a DMG MORI DMU50, and a Takisawa TS-20 all simultaneously off of the phase perfect, which in theory is way too much load. Maybe half a dozen times in 2 years the DMG MORI would get upset because the spindle (20k ~ 45hp) didn't get up to speed fast enough. Other than that the system was flawless. The overcurrent protection setup on the PP worked miracles for my environment.

I would not hesitate to run basically anything on a Phase Perfect. My setup lasted about 5 years before moving into an actual industrial building and switching over to true 3 phase.
 
I didn't see the compressor defined as recip or screw. If recip I would put it on its own vfd. Recip startup loads can be huge, 100+amps, even industrial ones with unloaders.

I now run 2 5hp 3 phase recips on vfd's. I have no issues at all. For awhile I ran a 7.5hp single phase recip fed from a 45kva transformer, everything sized correctly, and on a hot summer day when everyone was running ac and the voltage is down some that compressor would brown out the cnc's when it kicked on.
 
I have a 30HP Phase perfect and it does a fairly good job. I have 100 amp 220 V breaker to the phase perfect. From the PP to a 100amp 3 phase load center (Siemens). It runs my manual machines no issues. My CNC mills it does ok... I believe the issue is my compressor. I bought a hydrovane compressor from Gardner Denver. When the compressor kicks on and when my spindle is in a certain RPM on the CNC it kicks the converter out. I might need to try the VFD idea others are talking about...
 








 
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