Pioneer CAT40 Failure

[Magneto Jim]

I am wondering if anyone else has experienced crack failures of CAT40 ER16 Collet size tools? We had purchased sometime ago (2014 lot code) about 5 or 6 of the 2 inch reach CAT40 tool holders, and without exception everyone of the holders cracked along the threads and up the narrowed shaft. Torque has always been at less than 40 ft-lbs to tighten around the collet. The crack was invisible to the naked eye and we only noticed it once we added hi pressure coolant. At this point the coolant sprayed through the side of the holder portion just above the tightening nut. I checked all of my other CAT40 tool holders ranging from off brand Chinese to Lyndex etc... and none of them have any cracks. These have very low operating hours? Just wondering if this is common or if I should stay away from certain brands?

 

[Fal Grunt]

My experience with Pioneer was that they were garbage. I complained enough that our tool supply company sent a Pioneer salesman out. I spent over an hour showing all the issues. His response was essentially "what did you expect". He recommended that we buy the higher grade holder and collet types.

I stated simply that if the "lower quality" holders and collets did not meet their specified accuracy, why would I think that the higher grade ones would?

They wound up sending us about $1500 in holders and collets. They were definitely better but still not up to what they claimed in the catalog.

When I can buy Maritool, I really don't see any reason to pay more for garbage.

 

[crossthread82]

I tend to believe in the saying "You get what you pay for." Now that certainly doesn't always hold true, but in my experience it has done me right more than it has wronged me. For ER stuff I stick with Rego, it's expensive but I haven't come across anything better. Plus they did invent the ER system after all, so who would know it better...

 

[Fal Grunt]

I tend to believe in the saying "You get what you pay for." Now that certainly doesn't always hold true, but in my experience it has done me right more than it has wronged me. For ER stuff I stick with Rego, it's expensive but I haven't come across anything better. Plus they did invent the ER system after all, so who would know it better...

When I bought my Brother I had basically the same thought. I had used several RegoFix in a few cases over the years and they were by far the best holders. I had a few used ones I picked up super cheap that were awesome on my first CNC.

BUT, when I went to price RegoFix from my tooling supplier they quoted something like $380 ($360?) for a ER32 collet holder (Lyndex was $240/ea), and $80 I think it was per collet. I'll have to look and see if I can find the pricing, I think the collet was less than that, maybe $60/ea?

Either way, the math worked out that I could reasonably get 3-4 times as many tool holders and collets from Maritool for the same cost.

For me, it's simple math. When I blow apart a 3/8" rougher because it has long since given up on life, and it gouges up the inside bore of the tool holder, I'm not pissed because I trashed a $240 or $380 tool holder. I'm still mad, because I don't like destroying a tool holder, but $100 doesn't hurt as bad.

ESPECIALLY when you consider the rougher was 80 FRIGGIN dollars!

 

[Orange Vise]

When I can buy Maritool, I really don't see any reason to pay more

Definitely agreed with this.

and without exception everyone of the holders cracked along the threads and up the narrowed shaft.

That generally indicates a process problem when an entire lot is plagued with the same issue. We can only speculate what went wrong, but it was probably either a bad heat treatment, or they somehow machined stress risers into the blanks before heat treatment. Those holders are almost a decade old, but I'd be curious as to what Pioneer has to say about it. A good manufacturer should always see problems as an opportunity to reconnect with a customer, even if it means having to replace a bunch of 9 year old tools to get the dialogue going.

For ER stuff I stick with Rego, it's expensive but I haven't come across anything better. Plus they did invent the ER system after all, so who would know it better...

Try Maritool.

Nothing bad to say about Rego. Their PG system is pretty awesome. Hard to justify that kind of pricing for ER though.

As for inventing ER, they basically added the "R" to the "E" collet. Prior to that, E-collet chucks didn't have nuts with eccentric rings, so the only way to eject an E-collet was to knock it out from the back of the holder with a rod and hammer.

 

[Milland]

I'd say a nine year old toolholder's earned its keep. I've mostly got Techniks holders here, and while I know they rebrand other makes, I'm happy with what I've gotten over the years. The only caveat to that is the latest ER collets, I may not get more of them as the last batch didn't seem quite as accurate as previous versions.

 

[Mtndew]

We have a bunch of Pioneer Cat40 holders and zero issues. Although none of them are ER16. They are ER25, ER40 and end mill holders.

 

[Areo Defense]

@Magneto Jim
Sorry to hear of your bad experience with Pioneer. We have some of their mill chucks and they've worked great as well as some of the MX line. The only problem we've experienced was we had some out of spec holders. I had a holder collision and I was very sure NX cam wasn't the issue so I did some investigating and found a couple of MX6 holders with oversize OD's; .050-.060". Our local source for tooling reached out to Pioneer and they basically said too bad, so sad, and washed their hands of it. Given my very poor customer service experience and Pioneer not standing behind their products, I completely dropped them as a tooling source and have never recommended them to this day. Too bad, so sad.

 

[Mtndew]

Damn, I didn't know their customer service was so horrible. Glad I've never needed them. Time to look elsewhere for holders that Mari-Tool doesn't stock.

 

[Magneto Jim]

My experience with Pioneer was that they were garbage. I complained enough that our tool supply company sent a Pioneer salesman out. I spent over an hour showing all the issues. His response was essentially "what did you expect". He recommended that we buy the higher grade holder and collet types.

I stated simply that if the "lower quality" holders and collets did not meet their specified accuracy, why would I think that the higher grade ones would?

They wound up sending us about $1500 in holders and collets. They were definitely better but still not up to what they claimed in the catalog.

When I can buy Maritool, I really don't see any reason to pay more for garbage.

I am currently discussing this issue with their customer service team and national sales manager. I will let everyone know their response.

 

[jlitteau]

Hello, my name is Justin and I work for Pioneer. We take the quality of our products very seriously. If anyone here has any unresolved issues, please reach out to me and I will personally make sure it is resolved. We are working with Jim to resolve this particular issue. The holders are 9yo and it’s hard to claim manufacturing defect at this point without any previous known issues. This is a very popular number with no previous known cracking issues. Can’t say the same for ER20. In many situations where the ratio of holders purchased to holder failures is so high, it’s usually applicational. We are not perfect but we always strive to be better. Someone will be in touch Jim.

 

[jlitteau]

@Magneto Jim
Sorry to hear of your bad experience with Pioneer. We have some of their mill chucks and they've worked great as well as some of the MX line. The only problem we've experienced was we had some out of spec holders. I had a holder collision and I was very sure NX cam wasn't the issue so I did some investigating and found a couple of MX6 holders with oversize OD's; .050-.060". Our local source for tooling reached out to Pioneer and they basically said too bad, so sad, and washed their hands of it. Given my very poor customer service experience and Pioneer not standing behind their products, I completely dropped them as a tooling source and have never recommended them to this day. Too bad, so sad.

Please message me or email our sales team and I will make sure to resolve this. We reduced the nose of the MX06 to 0.500” many years ago now.

 

[jlitteau]

My experience with Pioneer was that they were garbage. I complained enough that our tool supply company sent a Pioneer salesman out. I spent over an hour showing all the issues. His response was essentially "what did you expect". He recommended that we buy the higher grade holder and collet types.

I stated simply that if the "lower quality" holders and collets did not meet their specified accuracy, why would I think that the higher grade ones would?

They wound up sending us about $1500 in holders and collets. They were definitely better but still not up to what they claimed in the catalog.

When I can buy Maritool, I really don't see any reason to pay more for garbage.

Please reach out to me and we can resolve any and all issues you have with Pioneer. We strive to beat catalog spec 100% of the time.

 

[csteen]

I have seen the same thing happen to Rego - Fix holders as well. The first time we sent it back and they did their analysis, they will all break if you do not have tool shank in the collet sufficient amount. It has since happened about 3 more times all from the same thing and same employee. Not sure it is the quality of the holders.

 

[rklopp]

I had some used ER-? holders show up with axial cracks running from the tapers to the threads. It looked like stress corrosion cracking may have played a role. I have seen that in a broken pull stud thread, too. Coolant gets in a crevice sitting under steady high tensile stress and corrosion gets to work.

 

[Magneto Jim]

We have a bunch of Pioneer Cat40 holders and zero issues. Although none of them are ER16. They are ER25, ER40 and end mill holders.

I have several of the Pioneer CAT40 ER32 Holders and none of them have cracked just the ER16's which are a 4" length. I have several other brands of ER16's with an even thinner side wall than the Pioneers' and not one of those has a crack, just the Pioneers.

 

[Magneto Jim]

I have seen the same thing happen to Rego - Fix holders as well. The first time we sent it back and they did their analysis, they will all break if you do not have tool shank in the collet sufficient amount. It has since happened about 3 more times all from the same thing and same employee. Not sure it is the quality of the holders.

I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that we have multiple brands varying from Lyndex to Cheap Generics off of Amazon (Rush order). Not one of the other ER16 holders has ever cracked, but 5 out of 6 of the Pioneer ER16's Cracked. Same Torque, Same collets, same Operator..... You would thing a $180 CAT40 Tool Holder from Pioneer would be tougher than a cheap knockoff for $30 from Amazon.