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Potential FP2 shipping damage

It looks like there are two (G20x 26x 4 INA) in the drawing adjacent to each other. The needle bearings go down to 10 mm in length with the 20 by 26 dimension. The only product I can find with that designation is a INA 4 mm bearing seal, could those be bearing seals? 27860014 didn't have any hits related to bearings in google.

I managed to get an engine crane yesterday, the only one NAPA had.
 
24 lbs force to get table moving

Mounted the rotary table on the mill.
mounting table.jpg
I measured how much force it took to overcome static friction in the Z axis with a digital fish scale. It took 24 lbs to start it moving up with the rotary table mounted and a Kurt vise on it. Does that seem normal?

I measured how much force it took at the wheel rim so I didn't have to worry about a changing angle, it was always applied tangentially, normal to the radius that way. I used a bungee cord wrapped around the rim so it would be easier to slowly increase the force. I corrected for the modestly increased distance of the rim compared to the handle.
 
24 lbs to get it moving ?
That's an interesting data but your rotary table (aka the universal toolmaker table here ;)) is about 200lbs heavier than the tables most commonly found on FP2's and 3's.
Not having any fish scale, I'll have to figure out a way to take the same measurement on my machine.

I second Ross's comment about the thrust bearing beeing part # 25130004/81104 INA on the drawing and on my FP3 Aktiv, it was a roller bearing.
 
T:
If you wish to compare...Perhaps you could place an arm across the center of the hand wheel and extend it a distance from the rim....say 1 meter. Orient the arm horizontal.
Then apply weight to the end of the lever. (easiest to drill a hole at the end and hang the weight from a string, keeps the length constant)
Add weight till the lever moves ....do the math to convert
Cheers Ross
 
Ok I did even simpler.

Took a bit of rope and attached it to the handle of the z-handwheel, then I had it run on the rim so as to be able to attach some weights that would pull the other end down (and thus crank the handwheel up).

It took 8kg (17,6lbs) to overcome the static friction and get the wheel spinning all the way down to the end of the short rope.

The machine was lubed from the last time I used it, a couple of weeks ago, and I had only done a few handwheel turns prior to my measurements, to re-establish some kind of oil film on the z-ways (that's how I feel it at least)...
The machine is equiped with a 2231 table, wich weighs in at approx. 130kg, and there is a VW engine case on it currently (approx. 10/15kg).
 
That's interesting, is that a standard bumper jack? Slides into the T slot like that. I don't recall bumper jacks having slots punched all the way through the web, now I'll have to go look at one. Ford, Chevy, or Dodge?

LOL... I was having the same thought! I can imagine the "hmmm, how do I lift this thing... ah-ha!" thought while looking around the shop. :)

Nice table, but that bugger sure is big!
 
I bought a farm jack a few years ago but solved the problem in another way before it arrived so I had a dusty new jack in the corner of the garage. The column is a beefy little castellated I-beam. I looked and they have a different column design now so I don't know if it would still slide in there. I was worried that lifting it with a pair of T-nuts might put too much focal pressure on the slots since the table weighs over 400 lbs. I know I wouldn't wanted to be lifted that way.

adh2000 in Waukesha, I grew up in Oak Creek and was fixing circuit boards at the GE Medical Systems plant at the Hwy 16 exit around the time this mill was produced.

The fish scale I used definitely isn't an optimal solution, just the only one I could come up with on the island. It updates relatively slowly and if the tension isn't increasing fast enough it locks the current measurement. I just have regular torque wrenches, none with digital output, always looking for a reason to buy new tools though.

TNB thank you for taking that measurement. That really helps. What weight increment were you using? Wondering what the last weight was that would not overcome static friction.

I took a series of measurements, not just the one I reported. Initially I made the measurements with blue painters tape wrapped around the rim of the wheel. It wasn't strong enough to turn the wheel once the rotary table was on though. I measured the force (in lbs) at the rim necessary to raise and lower the Z axis when there was no table on the machine, then with the rotary table on, then with the table and a Kurt vise.

Fup Fdn u * Cotangent (A)
No table 9.6 5.5 3.7
table 18.5 8.6 2.7
table + vise 21.0 9.0 2.5

table.JPG

u is supposed to be a "mu" for static coefficient of friction
A is the lead angle of the screw with Cot(A) being an unknown constant.
The screw is treated as an inclined plane initially. That gives a value for the term
u * Cot(A) = (Fup + Fdn) / (Fup - Fdn)

Measuring the force required to go up and down at each weight allows elimination of the weight of the table from the equation, which is unknown for the vertical table that is part of the machine. So the term proportional to the static coefficient of friction appears to decrease with increasing weight. That shows the model is too simple, but it is still useful for understanding the system. The apparent coefficient would decrease with increasing weight if there was another term that became less significant with increasing table weight. I think that would be the case for force necessary to overcome static friction when force on a sliding surface is independent of the weight on the table. I have never seen a jib but I imagine that "tightening the jibs" that increases the force necessary to turn the wheel may fit into the model with the addition of this term. This may all be a bit of nerdy silliness but having a reasonably accurate model of the knee would allow comparison between machines with different tables.

I was struggling with the algebra to calculate that term when the rotary phase converter unexpectedly arrived yesterday. I wasn't prepared with all the odds and ends to wire it in so I ran around town and found parts to get it going. The good news is that the mill and DRO readout for 3 of the 4 axes work. The bad news is that the readout for the rotary table doesn't. The external cable from the table goes through a hole in the base to connect to another cable. That was disconnected and the seller said he didn't disconnect it. The wire at the internal connector looks damaged so it may have been pulled apart by the cable. Simply mating the connectors did not work. Hopefully the connector just has to be repaired.
 
I was worried that lifting it with a pair of T-nuts might put too much focal pressure on the slots since the table weighs over 400 lbs. I know I wouldn't wanted to be lifted that way.

Factory setup to remove the table (believe in the FP-NC manuals) has the table lifted using two "T" slots one at each corner (diagonal) using a "T" shaped piece that slips into the end of the slot.
The lifting piece has a lug that prevents it from sliding down the slot, rather stays at the edge of the slot. The lifting lug has an ear to accommodate a chain...A chain from each diagonal lifting point (2) converge
at the center of the table where they are connected via a ring, where the assembly is lifted....

Point is two points are well strong enough to lift that table and for sure the "T" slot is fine. I have lifted my NC universal tables using the "T" slots, no problem...also have done safe lifts using web straps going under the table itself...one loop around each side and brought together at the center lift point...the angle of the straps keeps them from sliding off the under side of the table....

Cheers Ross
 
More or less...the area is the same, just a bit different as the Deckel setup has a feature that prevents the "T" from sliding from the edge of the slot. A guy could replicate the factory setup by welding a strap across one
end of the "T" nut to make a positive stop. Then fit an eye bolt to the threads and you are good to go.

But Yes , 2 standard "T" nuts will indeed hold that table up.
Sorry, i am at home just now so i can't provide a picture of the factory setup.....
Cheers Ross

OK here you go.....
attachment.php
 
I have the roughly triangular support piece and arbors here:
image0(2).jpg
It is my understanding that I need the long reach vertical head or an overarm to use the arbors, or can it be done with the standard vertical head?
 
Believe that on your machine you can just extend the "Y" slide. rotate the vertical head 90*
...You can then slide the outboard support on to the dovetail of the" Y" axis
The plastic piece shown is there when you move the vertical head and support to the rear to give clearance for working horizontal...The plastic piece covers the top of the "Y" slide to keep chips and dirt out while retaining the oil.
Should be some reference marks on the vertical head protractor and its base to show where to position the vertical head when moving it to the rear...it won't be set flat to the horizon because you need to allow clearance for the vertical quill shaft to clear the "Y" dovetails.....

Think one of those arbors is not usable on your machine without making a different outboard support.
Can't tell from the photo, but the threaded rod is i believe a draw bar...Your machine might have been converted to the later ISO spec tooling over the older spec Deckel 20 x 2.0 buttress threaded draw bars...

Cheers Ross
 
TNB thank you for taking that measurement. That really helps. What weight increment were you using? Wondering what the last weight was that would not overcome static friction.

I must admit I did my measurement the very quick and dirty way !

I attached the first thing I had laying around the machine to the rope, so as to form a flat surface on wich I kept adding other bits at hand, untill the handwheel started spinning.
To give you an idea, that thing I chucked the rope with was was a 140mm three-jaws... Then I put all the mess on my ultra-precise bathroom scale, and voilà !

Despite the ridiculous look of my setup, laws of physics make me pretty confident in my measurement, but don't ask me about the weight increments I used ! ;)
 
I had to teach the FP2 a few tricks to get it off the pallet and back along the wall.
FP2onBars.jpg
Fortunately it didn't learn to roll over and play dead.
FP2onblocks.jpg
The rotary table DRO didn't work. The connectors inside the rotary table were pulled apart by the cable by the movers based on its appearance. Attempted strain relief was some black electrical tape that wasn't up for the challenge. The shortest wire broke.
ConBeforeSm.jpg
That picture is after I picked off some of the painted on black rubber insulation to see what was going on. There are a number of problems that make this type of connection unreliable so I decided to replace the whole connector.
ConAfter.jpg
ConAfterPlugged.jpg
And it worked!

When I went to test the machine I powered it up and pressed the "I" button and the spindle turned. For the first time I pressed the "II" speed button for a second or two and the brake started to clack and I could hear relays making noise in the electrical cabinet. I spoke to the prior owner and he said he never pushed that button. One of the reasons I picked the rotary phase converter that I did was that it was the same one he was using. It's called a 10HP unit but is supposed to be good for starting 5HP motors. The motor has 2.7 and 4HP settings. So I suspect that the FP2 doesn't like the phase converter output run at full power. I think the next step is to order one of the phase perfect systems like I was going to do anyway.
 
Be sure that the wiring feeding everything is heavy enough.....If any long runs go oversize. There are also soft start devices that can soften teh large current draw when starting in the higher speed ranges.

But for sure you will not be disappointed with a PP.....they just work, and it lets you forget worrying about power and focus on important stuff.
Note that the PP is available in an outdoor enclosure is desired...saves valuable space. Not sure how your weather conditions are and if their enclosure is to the task, would ask...

Cheers Ross
 
We get the most rain of any city in the US I believe, this last summer was our record for rain, 47 inches in 3 months.
I was going to get the outdoor enclosure for the inside of the garage, just in case.
 








 
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