Pratt & Whitney Model C Lathe (WWII era): Scraped Ways Or Hardened & Ground Ways?

[morsetaper2]

Was looking over craigslist and saw this war era P&W 14x54 Model C lathe. Noticed the ways seem to be scraped. I would have thought they would have been hardened and ground and w/o scraping. Perhaps during the war some were shipped w/ soft ways that were scraped?

Lathe looks like it's lived an easy life. All the placards are in great shape and not beat up. And overall doesn't seem to show 80 years of use from the pictures. Could be a nice machine, I don't really know. I don't have the room for it at my small shop.

Was more curious about the ways?

S/N puts it likely 1944/45-ish

altoona tools - by owner - craigslist

altoona tools - by owner - craigslist

altoona.craigslist.org

Text of CL listing:
"Pratt&Whitney 14”x54” Model C Engine Lathe.
Lathe is 5hp 240v 3 phase equipped with brand new 12” Bison 3 jaw chuck . Has a 12” 4 jaw . Both are D-6 mount . Lathe has these factory OEM items . Taper attachment , steady rest, follower test, micrometer bed stop , large face plate , driver plate , drill chuck, live center , dead center , Dorian CXA Tool post and 4 holders , lantern style tool post with holders , indicator bed stop .
Not much is needed to be off and running."

Pictures for posterity:

 

[morsetaper2]

More photos from ad:

 

[Peroni]

I believe that lathe was on Ebay a while ago with a Hendey in similar condition? There should be a post on here somewhere discussing them and speculating on the scraping. These earlier sloped head model C's were scraped with lather ones being hardened and ground. I don't know when the change happened. Maybe when the 14" lathe was dropped from the lineup?

 

[johnoder]

More photos from ad:

My 1950 had them - not much before I would suppose - and especially the older ones "slope head" I call them

 

[FJsapper]

Wow, that thing looks super low miles…

 

[MyLilMule]

Flaking for oil retention. I've seen this on the non-moving ways of other machines as well.

 

[MCritchley]

The lathe may have had a “Chicago job” rebuild, Paint and way flaking.

Those scraping marks are simply for show.

 

[john.k]

Maybe,but its kinda difficult to hide the nicks and dents that non hard beds get under the chuck .....and I dont see any.

 

[FJsapper]

The lathe may have had a “Chicago job” rebuild, Paint and way flaking.

Those scraping marks are simply for show.

Perhaps, but I don’t see wear to the handles, nicks on the top of the tool tray, every normal “oopsie” spot seems to look fairly clean…if it was a respray they actually took the time to disassemble everything and freshen up the hardware…

 

[morsetaper2]

Maybe,but its kinda difficult to hide the nicks and dents that non hard beds get under the chuck .....and I dont see any.

Looking at the photographs there are a few 'Nicks & Dents" on the ways under the chuck area. This lathe appears to have "low mileage' when you look at the lack of wear on all the plaques and labels on the machine. And the ways at the under chuck area do show some marks. Not much for an 80 yo machine though! I've indicated the visible ones in this photo here:
Granted that is not much "abuse". However inline w/ the apparent low use this machine appears to show. The flaking looks original, or at least has been there a very long time. And doesn't look like it was done over top of the marks I indicated. This is a 1944/45 war machine by s/n. Has a War Production Board plaque, so looks to me that it is likely a legitimate soft bed shipped out w/ a war going on. And not a "Chicago Rebuild". And note the comments from Peroni & John Oder in post #'s 3&4 that early model C's had scraped ways, rather than H&G ways.

I'd have to see this in person to be certain, but I think it may be all original. Or somebody did one hell of a detailed repaint and replaced and applied new NOS plaques all over it. Along w/ nicely cleaning up all the usual "wear & tear" points a lathe accumulates over 80 years. All the nuts, bolts, & wrench points are clean & fresh.

All in all, hard to tell from photos...

 

[MCritchley]

There is one way to find out if it’s a decent machine, test it.

Bring a level, and a long bar of aluminum and run the machine.

1st check, turn a piece of material the exact size of the tailstock quill. Mount an Indicator on the tool post and check the turned piece and the height of the tailstock. This tells a lot, it might be close, you may also find shims in the tailstock. Turn a long part with a sharp tool, is it tapered, are there hiccups in the gear train that translates to the finish?

Also look at the gear rack mounted to the bed just below the chuck, how does it look?

I just drive to Tennessee to look at what was billed as a mint Lodge and Shipley, looked great in the photos. Not a knick in any of the badges and the original paint was great. After leveling I noticed there was zero oil anywhere except the headstock, so I filled what I could and did some test cuts.
The tailstock was .025 low and the lack of oil really accelerated wear on nearly every moving part.
I got in the car and drove home.

By Chicago job I mean the exposed ways have been flaked. We all know this is just for show and is actually detrimental to a machines life.

The lathe might be great, check it out run every feed and speed, plan to spend a half day with it. I’ve bought 7 manual lathes in my career, Each was tested leveled and tested as described. I’ve walked away a few times, you don’t want to bring a basket case home.

 

[beckerkumm]

The proof is in how it turns but it looks to have had some Dolly Parton work done. Parts of the machine look almost new but other parts ( look at the compound ) look like you would expect for the age. Dave

 

[Peroni]

Here is the Hendey the same Ebay seller as that P&W had listed. Same perfect paint, yellow handles, intact placards and scraping pattern.

 

[john.k]

I suspect both lathes have had a complete professional rebuild ,and not used since........possibly out of a physics or engineering lab at a university ......the local uni sold brand new top line machines still in the crates ......for scrap!

 

[morsetaper2]

Here is the Hendey the same Ebay seller as that P&W had listed. Same perfect paint, yellow handles, intact placards and scraping pattern.

View attachment 389175View attachment 389176View attachment 389177

Can you provide the full ebay links for both lathes? Thx!

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

If I had to put my house on it I’d say that somebody has gone over the ways with a “ BIAX “ flaker. Nice job though. Whoever did it obviously knew what they were doing. Same goes for everything else cosmetically. The work light is still there, it’s got a full compliment of ball handles although they could be new.
Is the coolant pump still there ? I see no signs of any coolant piping etc.

I noticed the apron sight glass appears to be empty. One of the first things I used to do was remove the drain plug and see what comes out. Coolant can usually find a way into the apron over the years. Along the keyway in the feed shaft is the usual entry point. If it’s coolant followed by a bit of oil walk away. Coolant rot in the apron can be pretty expensive
Of course if it’s already been drained you’ll be none the wiser.

Overall it looks like a lathe that has been used but obviously not “ hammered “. In UK terms the price appears high for an almost 80 year old machine. I’m not up to speed with US prices.

Like purchasing any machine tool you need to be able run it.

For me it was “ Me No Run It - Me No Buy It “.

Regards Tyrone

 

[Peroni]

Can you provide the full ebay links for both lathes? Thx!

I don't have any links for the completed listings. These were on Ebay probably 2+ yrs ago now if I remember right?

 

[m-lud]

If the innards are as nice as the outer it's pretty nice. I would rather not buy paint jobs unless I can trust the seller.
They did nice " looking" work on the ways.
I like it.
The yellow paint on the handles goes back to the mid 1970s with OSHA. I was a printer, the boss brought out yellow and oarnge paint. paint all the adjusting handles yellow and moving part guards orange. It made sticky hands until the paint dried. We never shut down the presses accept changeovers.
Dumb OSHA idea.