Refering to the "Iron Tour" post 107 Should Ruemema advertise with prices or not

[Peter from Holland]

Refering to the "Iron Tour" post 107 Should Ruemema advertise with prices or not

I am referring to that post of TNB " iron tour 2015"
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...ur-2015-lots-pics-301415/?highlight=iron+tour
And then especialy post 107 where we visited Mr Kramer The top rebuilder of Schaublin and Leinen lathes
I do some bussiness with him now and then and last week I offered him a Schaublin 135
And off coarse we talked about bussiness a bit
Also about the 2 machines he still has in stock A Schaublin 135 and a Leinen DLZ 140
Both supperb machines
He does advertise these machines but without prices
I told him that IMHO he better states a price The reasson beeing that customers for these machines know they do not come cheap and on seeing the price they know they are on the right track
So I would hear some opinions about this with some arguments
Who is in favor of not advertising with prices and who is in favor of mentioning the prices in advertising


To know what we are talking about down here you find post 107 of TNB (with some pictures removed for sizereassons)

Peter from Holland

We're reaching the end of the journey now...
That was a great experience and I hope you enjoyed sharing it with us, but as i told you earlier in this thread, the best is yet to come.

We didn't you tell about the most thrilling experience of that trip yet...our visit at RUEMEMA !





That is something we really wanted to keep for the end, as a dessert...

This shop is specialized in the rebuidling of ultra-high precision manual lathes.

Rüdiger Kramer, who runs the firma Ruemema, works on the Schaublin 135, 150 and 160, and on the Leinen LZ140 only,


Those machines were probably amongst the finest manual lathes ever produced, and of a quality that is not manufactured anymore today.

They are thus a solid starting point to work on and beeing able to offer customers the best machines money can buy in the end.

Basically, when a machine leaves Ruemema's shop, it is new and in fact, probably better than a new one.

Each and every machine is dismantled down to the smallest bit.
Each part is inspected and if it doesn't match Herr Kramer's standards, replaced by a new one. That includes bearings, spindle bearings, screws, gears, absolutely everything. Everything.

When we were here, a Schaublin 150b was just to be finished
It is a very rare machine that has the ability to cut threads fully automaticaly in cyles. Very few were made before the CNC era killed the need for such beasts.
Man. What a beauty !I don't think I had ever seen such a beaufitul lathe before. And althought it is hard to report with words, you recognize, you feel the quality ot the machine within the first handwheel revolution. It's a mix of smoothess and tightness in a perfectly light movement.

Hard to describe really.












The Schaublins and the Leinen are machines for wich it is still possible to get new spare parts, wich is mandatory. Rüdiger told us that he typically spends as much as 20.000 euros (twenty thousands) euros in spare parts to rebuild a Schaublin 150. Did I hear oh-my-Gawd ?

Rüdiger told us that a customer of his, who cringed about the price of parts may be, was offered to get charged for the labor only, but would have to provide all the required spares on his own. Wich turned out to be at least as expensive.


Rüdiger showed us a simple -well, what seems like a simple- locking nut that comes at the rear of the 150 spindle assembly.

This is basically a threaded ring with provision to secure it on the spindle.
But that part is treated and precision ground to ensure a dead perfect perpendicularity of the thrust face with regard to the spindle axis, and Schaublin asks more than 500 euros for it...

One wouldn't want to compromise the ultra precise spindle assembly with lesser quality parts and after all, it is not sure that manufacturing that part with the same level of quality would be much cheaper so of course, things get a little more understandable after you get in that kind of details...


But beauty is not only skin deep. The ways are ground and scraped in-house by Herr Kramer.

Ruemema is located in a residential area, wich is a good thing as Rüdiger explained to us, since the vibrations of the heavy trafic of an industrial zone could disturb the grinding process.

Rüdiger did insist on the grinding of the ways beeing a very delicate operation, that requires a lot of time and care, and likes to have it "under control".
Please don't pay attention to what may seem as discoloration on the ways, since it was only oil sprayed on them to prevent any risk of corrosion. The surface of those ways was per-fect.





After seeing the kind of tolerances he achieves with his machines as well as his incredible inspection equipment, I'm a believer.

Rüdiger offered us to make the test of putting any member of his machines under load with an indicator resting on it.

We did. Trying to lift the carriage of the Schaublin 150 or to push hard on the coumpound slide.
The needle barely moved, although the slides were absolutely, perfectly smooth all over their travel and the indicator was a... Mahr Millimess ! (thousands of millimeter indicator, that is).







Of course, one of the questions that come to mind when talking about such tolerances for a lathe, is who the heck is in need for such accuracy for what remains -turning- some kind of a roughing process ?
In that regard, our meeting with Herr Kramer was an eye opener to me. He explained to us that there are some very special applications in wich that level of precision allow his customers to make very special parts that would not be doable another way.

He told us about customers of his who are in high end optics and who have to turn hard-anodized parts to an extremely high level of accuracy - diameter-concentricity-perpendicularity-roundness. Hard anodization is a process wich does not goes along well with grinding, Rüdiger explained to us.
Think about the level of accuracy one has to expect from a rifle scope to allow shooting at distances in the range of 2000m... That makes sense.
We also talked about the making of measuring instruments for the field of common rail injection for diesel engines. Devices that require a very high level of accuracy, such as no seal can be used, but also have to handle pressures as high as 2000 atm...

To give you an idea of the kind of accuracy one can expect from Ruemema's machines, here's the Prüfprotokoll of the Schaublin 150b that was just beeing finished as we were at Rüdiger's shop :

I can also encourage you to browse his website, where he describes his work and his machines. it is well worth a visit and you'll learn a lot about the dedication of this man to quality and precision : http://www.ruemema.de/




​

 

[adh2000]

It is always better to advertise a price. Every time I have gone after a machine that was advertised for sale without a price no deal came together. Usually the machine is not really for sale, the "seller" just wanted to show off the good stuff that he has so he can sell something else, or they are on some fishing expedition to see if some insane buyer will offer a stupid amount of money. People who are actually in business and want to sell things always put a price on them.

 

[duckman]

I will pay more than if I have to dick around with a dealer, no price no deal.

 

[Peter from Holland]

But why do so little dealers advertise with prices
Not only used but even on new machines
There must be a strategy behind that

Peter from Holland

 

[adh2000]

They just want you to call and ask. Dealers have large egos and are so self confident if they can just get you on the phone they can sell you something. They want to engage you in a conversation about what you are doing, what you are making, what do you have to sell, and what would you want to buy. While that conversation is going on they are thinking in their head about how they can convince you that you need something they have, that it can totally save you time and save your business and so you should pay whatever for this item. This all has nothing to do with anything you called about. That's the game for them. Do I sound cynical? Could be.

 

[TNB]

As a lurker, I certainly appreciate when dealers put price tags on their machines.

But Rüdiger Kramer is not the average dealer. He's a rebuilder, and even then, not the average rebuilder.
I was lucky enough to visit him during this iron tour, and I can tell you that there's more to learn and feel meeting him, than any typical advertisement could convey.

So in his case, I can understand why he wouldn't put prices on his machines. Gives him the opportunity to speak with potential customers and to explain them what they need to know to fully appreciate the machines and the prices they are offered for.

As you said Peter, the typical customer for such machines probably knows he's not in the market for a 5.000 euros lathe. Probably, but not necessarily.

During our trip we've seen numerous machines offered for similar or may be only slightly lower prices, but wich condition weren't even remotely comparable. And they sell, though.
I also can remember the story Rüdiger told us about a customer that finally made the choice for a Schaublin 150 offered by a "competitor" of his for a slightly lower price than what he wanted for the same machine he had rebuilded.
Turned out that the other machine had not been properly rebuilded and was unusable after 1,5 year or so IIRC and the customer came back to Rüdiger to see what he could do to repair the machine....
That clearly shows that people who sign the paycheck for such machines are not always the ones who have the best knowledge and experience to judge the quality of the machine.

In that regard, I think it may be important to prevent people from sticking strictly on the price tag, wich is only part of the picture.
Not putting the prices upfront may be a way to help a direct contact and achieve that goal.

On the other hand, Rüdiger's prices are not outrageous at all if you consider the committment and quality and if you compare them with what the market has to offer.
I've seen a Schaublin 150 offered for 40.000 by a swiss dealer, wich condition could be rated from "cleaned up" to "overhauled" at best.
So for someone willing to put that money in such a machine, it may be a good thing to know that for only a little more one can buy a lathe rebuilded to the highests standards.

So the price tag matter is a so-so question.

My personal feeling is that it would be a good thing to have prices in the ads BUT, with a strong emphasis on what's behind the tag.
In that regard, Rüdiger's website has vastly improved a few monthes ago but I think there could be more "life" in it.
Was I on the market for that kind of machines, I'm now sure I would consider making the extra effort to buyone of his machines, but that's after I visited him for real.
I was really impressed with the charachter, his dedication and enthusiasm but these are things his current website convey only hafway IMHO. The website shows a lot of clean parts and machines but not enough of the man and his work and for me, it's what justifies the price.

 

[Peter from Holland]

They just want you to call and ask. Dealers have large egos and are so self confident if they can just get you on the phone they can sell you something. They want to engage you in a conversation about what you are doing, what you are making, what do you have to sell, and what would you want to buy. While that conversation is going on they are thinking in their head about how they can convince you that you need something they have, that it can totally save you time and save your business and so you should pay whatever for this item. This all has nothing to do with anything you called about. That's the game for them. Do I sound cynical? Could be.

But why for example is that different with cars Used and new ones all have a big pricetag
Those dealers have a big ego too I presume
While prices on new CNC machines are very rare WHY
What is the difference

Peter from Holland

 

[Peter from Holland]

FWIW
I just noticed he put prices on his machines
€30000 for the Leinen
€50000 for the Schaublin

good thing or bad thing ???

Peter from Holland

 

[trevj]

FWIW
I just noticed he put prices on his machines
€30000 for the Leinen
€50000 for the Schaublin

good thing or bad thing ???

Peter from Holland

Good thing!

I think that folks that have a need and desire for that type of machine, pretty much know that they cannot compare prices out of a Grizzly Catalog. The prices will stop folks that do so, from calling.

On the other hand, it tells me that I need to win a bigger lottery than I had thought, to put a 150, into my basement shop! <sigh> Simply beautiful!

Cheers
Trev

 

[Peter from Holland]

But with the 135 you have a manual lathe capable of hardturning and at grinding quality then
If you are looking for a really good manual lathe the Leinen at €30000 is a good choise too
It is about the same price as a new Weiler lathe while quality is much realy much better
Now the Hardinge HLV-H is new no longer in production this will be a good and perhaps a even better replacement

Peter from holland

 

[Lambert]

Good thing !

If I know prices upfront I don`t have to waste anybodies time to find out whether I can afford the item.

 

[trevj]

But with the 135 you have a manual lathe capable of hardturning and at grinding quality then
If you are looking for a really good manual lathe the Leinen at €30000 is a better choise
It is about the same price as a new Weiler lathe while quality is much realy much better
Now the Hardinge HLV-H is new no longer in production this will be a good and perhaps a even better replacement

Peter from holland

If that was in reference to my desire to have a Shaublin 150, I can tell you that I did run one regularly for several years at work. Dunno how or why we ended up with it there, but it sure was nice!

I figure my odds of having one, are right up there with my odds of winning said Lottery, but if a fella is gonna dream, he may as well dream big!

Yeah, a nice 135 would be cool too, but, like I said, a fella can dream!

Cheers
Trev

 

[Deckel Fan]

A price tag or not is a really hard question. At the one side the customer can see this is in my price league and buy. But if there is no price tag you are only looking for the technical specs and the seller has a chances to explain why the price is as it is.
And I must really say that the price of Rüdigers machines is really fair. I can say that because I have worked on some of his overhauled machine and they have an outstanding quality.
To be realistically they are too cheap for the work he does. Because there are no compromises in the quality like Turcite, SKC ore Moglice and only grinded surfaces. Everything is as I once was steal and cast iron scraped together in hundreds of hours, reconditioned gearboxes….. Everything like new ore better.
So if there is a price tag you only see the price and thing puh almost like a new machine. And I must say Yes it is a new machine price and you will get a “new” machine which is better and more superb then it ever was. But because the machines are advertised on a used machine marked place most people expect cheap and used machines.
So very hard to tell which way is right.
Maybe the marketplace is not the right one.

 

[Peter from Holland]

I agree the fact that Maschinensucher is probably not the best place to advertize his machines
But what are his alternatives ???
Advertising in magazines is too costly probbably for the low volume of machines he can produce
Does anyone has any ideas how to promote his bussiness ???

I also agree with Deckelfan on his prices Probbably to low for what he produces
Higher prices often sell better It reflects quality more

Peter from Holland

 

[Milacron]

But with the 135 you have a manual lathe capable of hardturning and at grinding quality then
If you are looking for a really good manual lathe the Leinen at €30000 is a good choise too
It is about the same price as a new Weiler lathe while quality is much realy much better
Now the Hardinge HLV-H is new no longer in production this will be a good and perhaps a even better replacement

As a 135 owner, one thing to point out to prospective 135 owners in the US is they are oriented more toward metric threading. You can do inch threads but most (but not all) inch pitches take some manual removal and installation of change gears to do so. The nicer thing about the 150 is it will do many more inch pitches via quick change knobs.

The 135 metric pitch inclinations have never been a problem for me, but it might for some buyers here. And of course the hand wheel dials are all metric, but a DRO negates that issue.