Sandvik Group buys Mastercam

[EmGo]

My thoughts on this and what will happen....

Mastecam WILL move to subscription only and online licensing just like Fusion is doing. It seems to be the play for any public company hocking software, don't see why Sandvik will want to do things any different.

Because Sandvik is a tool company, not a software company ? If they look at it as a way to sell more tooling, they will do whatever customers want instead of what they want.

Software companies have to go subscription because otherwise, they got nothin'. People don't have to buy new stuff, the 2020 version works fine. If they don't pull that option off the table, they'll have to downsize or go broke, and the CEO will be on $300 a week unemployment.

Sandvik is different. No guarantees that some mush-brained executive won't get the brilliant idea to bleed their customers too, but better chances than with any software company.

SAAS is life now.

Did you mean SAC ? Software As Chains ?

 

[gregormarwick]

My thoughts on this and what will happen....

Mastecam WILL move to subscription only and online licensing just like Fusion is doing. It seems to be the play for any public company hocking software, don't see why Sandvik will want to do things any different. This recurring revenue model is what they are all striving for. Its really too bad, but SAAS is life now.
I think it will be a gradual shift just like AD did. But customers will be funneled into this new system as quickly as possible 'voluntarily' and then we'll see the last few clingers get forced in...again just like AD is doing.


...of course this is just my opinion and not fact but mark this post and come back in a year or two.

It's a given. The tools that sandvik already have in this space are subscription.

 

[jeffj]

NX ditched annual releases and moved to continuous release, with a 4 digit number indicating precisely what version you are on. Major releases with new features happen in June and December, with monthly updates in between for bug fixes and the like. The current version is 1988. In reality, the more users switch to the continual release model, the less anyone cares about precisely which version you are on.

For 2022, release number naming scheme will change again. YYMM - first two digits for the year, second two for the month.

 

[SeymourDumore]

You are confusing a different revenue model with a customer acquisition tactic.

No, I am not!

What I was saying is that to-date, the primary source for funding the Fusion development came from the other CAM and CAD subscriptions, which were many multiples of the Fusion subscription.
Since those tools are now either gone or slated to be, they will need to find a new source of income.
If you don't believe that the new source of revenue will not come from a hugely increased Fusion subscription, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[gregormarwick]

No, I am not!

What I was saying is that to-date, the primary source for funding the Fusion development came from the other CAM and CAD subscriptions, which were many multiples of the Fusion subscription.
Since those tools are now either gone or slated to be, they will need to find a new source of income.
If you don't believe that the new source of revenue will not come from a hugely increased Fusion subscription, then I don't know what to tell you.

One thing you are not considering, economies of scale apply to software too. There are almost certainly 10x or more active subscriptions to Fusion at this point in time than there have been active seats of any other cam system, ever.

Honestly, I'd be pretty shocked if Fusion development is not more than self sufficient by now.

Of course, that is not at all to say that AD will not milk it the second they think they can get away with it - even if Fusion IS self-sufficient, they still have 10 years of loss to recoup.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Gregor

The problem I see with your assessment is that it assumes that suddenly the CAM userbase has grown 10 fold.
Sure, Autodesk now may have 10X as many CAM customers as they've had 6-7-8 years ago, but doesn't mean much as 3 -4 years prior to that they've had none.
I would say that the overall userbase is steadily increasing, but it does so at a very shallow slope, and it's number is utterly out of the control of Autodesk.
The only thing they COULD control is how many users switch to an ADSK product from other software companies.
One clear indication of that is the recent Named-User shenanigan, where it is no longer 1 license = 1 seat, rather 1 license = 1 user.
Sure, you can technically change the assigned user as many time as you want .... for now anyway.
How long before there is a limit or some sort of restriction on the condition of the change?

I don't know, but I smell that something is afoot at Autodesk.
They have recently introduced the "new" FLEX licensing, which is essentially the same old seat-based licensing, but at a grossly inflated price.
Also, as of just last week there are E-mails coming out of resellers with a 25% off on FC, Partmaker(dead), CAMPlete, Fusion/Machining Extensions ...

 

[CarbideBob]

Gregor

The problem I see with your assessment is that it assumes that suddenly the CAM userbase has grown 10 fold.
.

How much has the Cam base grown in 30 years?

 

[gregormarwick]

Gregor

The problem I see with your assessment is that it assumes that suddenly the CAM userbase has grown 10 fold.
Sure, Autodesk now may have 10X as many CAM customers as they've had 6-7-8 years ago, but doesn't mean much as 3 -4 years prior to that they've had none.
I would say that the overall userbase is steadily increasing, but it does so at a very shallow slope, and it's number is utterly out of the control of Autodesk.
The only thing they COULD control is how many users switch to an ADSK product from other software companies.
One clear indication of that is the recent Named-User shenanigan, where it is no longer 1 license = 1 seat, rather 1 license = 1 user.
Sure, you can technically change the assigned user as many time as you want .... for now anyway.
How long before there is a limit or some sort of restriction on the condition of the change?

I don't know, but I smell that something is afoot at Autodesk.
They have recently introduced the "new" FLEX licensing, which is essentially the same old seat-based licensing, but at a grossly inflated price.
Also, as of just last week there are E-mails coming out of resellers with a 25% off on FC, Partmaker(dead), CAMPlete, Fusion/Machining Extensions ...

Seymour, consider what people use F360 for. It's not just machineshops.

How many cheap fdm printers and chinese cnc routers have been sold globally in the last decade?

Given how prominent F360 is in those markets, if even a fractional percentage of users are on a paid subscription then I still think it's fair to say:

There are almost certainly 10x or more active subscriptions to Fusion at this point in time than there have been active seats of any other cam system, ever.

 

[SeymourDumore]

Seymour, consider what people use F360 for. It's not just machineshops.

How many cheap fdm printers and chinese cnc routers have been sold globally in the last decade?

Given how prominent F360 is in those markets, if even a fractional percentage of users are on a paid subscription then I still think it's fair to say:

Gregor, you may be correct.
And if so, it will be one hell of a balancing act catering to professionals, artists and hobbyists alike.

 

[snapatap]

Gregor

The problem I see with your assessment is that it assumes that suddenly the CAM userbase has grown 10 fold.
Sure, Autodesk now may have 10X as many CAM customers as they've had 6-7-8 years ago, but doesn't mean much as 3 -4 years prior to that they've had none.
I would say that the overall userbase is steadily increasing, but it does so at a very shallow slope, and it's number is utterly out of the control of Autodesk.
The only thing they COULD control is how many users switch to an ADSK product from other software companies.
One clear indication of that is the recent Named-User shenanigan, where it is no longer 1 license = 1 seat, rather 1 license = 1 user.
Sure, you can technically change the assigned user as many time as you want .... for now anyway.
How long before there is a limit or some sort of restriction on the condition of the change?

I don't know, but I smell that something is afoot at Autodesk.
They have recently introduced the "new" FLEX licensing, which is essentially the same old seat-based licensing, but at a grossly inflated price.
Also, as of just last week there are E-mails coming out of resellers with a 25% off on FC, Partmaker(dead), CAMPlete, Fusion/Machining Extensions ...

Has anyone actually heard of them enforcing the 1 license = 1 user thing?

I hope Mastercam does go subscription, it will be a easier to talk my boss into changing to it, i really want to get away from featurecam, pitty he absolutely hates Sandvik.

 

[cnctoolcat]

Most definitely Fusion360 has the largest user base of any CAD/CAM software. It is the go-to software for all the inventors, hobbyists, “maker-space” folks, 3D printing-folks, and of course small machine shops.

If Autodesk is successful at getting F360 into community colleges and universities (which Mastercam did so well decades ago), it won’t bode well for the future of Mastercam.

If Autodesk was smart (they’re not) F360 could eventually push all the other CAD/CAM systems into the realm of NX : only applicable to large, well-funded, experienced users.

ToolCat

 

[gregormarwick]

Has anyone actually heard of them enforcing the 1 license = 1 user thing?

I hope Mastercam does go subscription, it will be a easier to talk my boss into changing to it, i really want to get away from featurecam, pitty he absolutely hates Sandvik.

I don't get your logic.

If they're both on subscription what's the advantage of moving?

All else being equal I'd rather have FC than MC any day of the week.

 

[goooose]

Has anyone actually heard of them enforcing the 1 license = 1 user thing?

I hope Mastercam does go subscription, it will be a easier to talk my boss into changing to it, i really want to get away from featurecam, pitty he absolutely hates Sandvik.

AD enforcing the 1 user things, yes. I remember a few threads, not sure if they were here or in a fb group.

Mastercam already offers a subscription option. So, go have a chat with your boss!

 

[metalmadness]

How much has the Cam base grown in 30 years?

I'm going to assume the CAM base has grown substantially over the past 3 decades for one main reason - as processors have become better and especially since 3D modelling became the norm, CAM became far more user friendly.

Now that computers can actually handle alot, I see a hard case to make for FingerCAM unless it is a 2 axis lathe. A lot of early CNC work was hand written code was it not? Now that that doesn't seem to be the norm CAM has exploded.

Personally I would much rather sit at a seat of CAM than program even a 2 axis lathe by hand. Yes I can do it and it is annoying. I like the computer to think for me...

 

[SeymourDumore]

Don't know my ass from my elbow when it comes to the stock trading and crap, but was poking about the Fusion userbase question and found this:

With 152,000 subscribers paying a low cost of $500 a year for Fusion 360 (a price that doesn't include extensions like 3D printing), the platform is only earning about $76 million annually -- not a major revenue influx for a company that generated close to $1 billion last quarter alone. However, it shows that the cloud-based platform strategy is working to win customers away from legacy competitors like Dassault Systemes.

And the source: Autodesk: An Unstoppable Growth Stock | The Motley Fool

 

[jeffj]

Most definitely Fusion360 has the largest user base of any CAD/CAM software. It is the go-to software for all the inventors, hobbyists, “maker-space” folks, 3D printing-folks, and of course small machine shops.

I would wager there are still more SolidWorks seats and users than Fusion users, doubly so if you only count paid Fusion subscriptions.

If Autodesk was smart (they’re not) F360 could eventually push all the other CAD/CAM systems into the realm of NX : only applicable to large, well-funded, experienced users.

Autodesk is smart, they didn't get where they are by being dumb. People may not like the things they have done, but their CEO is very smart. I would add to your list of "large, well-funded, experienced"; people that need advanced functionality, plethora of options, and certain performance Fusion will never deliver.

 

[EndlessWaltz]

They need to do what AD did(Fusion360) and offer a very limited Mastercam for hobbyists/graduated students where you can do basic tool pathing only in 3 axis. Make it NOT cloud based, and no need for internet, UNTIL you need to re-do the license by an internal software clock. If I was 23 and put as a button pusher somewhere and didn't want to forget programming or wanted to design something I would be on that like hot cakes.

 

[EmGo]

They need to do what AD did(Fusion360) and offer a very limited Mastercam for hobbyists/graduated students where you can do basic tool pathing only in 3 axis.

I think everyone has tried that trick, at least once or twice. Most of them dropped the idea pretty quick. No idea why ?

 

[snapatap]

I don't get your logic.

If they're both on subscription what's the advantage of moving?

All else being equal I'd rather have FC than MC any day of the week.

We spent a lot of money buying featurecam only to have that go to subscription, don't want to go through that again. I want to change software because i don't want to spend heaps of money on post processors for dead software. When delcam had it posts were free. now we have to pay to have post written from scratch by our reseller, we were quoted about $3k for a live tool lathe post (so far i have been able to program everything on the controller), i imagine a post for the 5axis mill we have coming will be $10K+.
I love featurecam but it's no longer being developed so its days are numbered.

 

[Mtndew]

i imagine a post for the 5axis mill we have coming will be $10K+.
I love featurecam but it's no longer being developed so its days are numbered.

I think it would depend on the type of machine. We got a Mastercam post (about 5 yrs ago) for our Okuma Genos and a 5 axis Koma table for less than $3k.

If it were a machine like the Multus I can see that being a lot more.