Sandvik inserts ...My GOD but they're expensive

[implmex]

Good morning all:
Recently I posted, whining and crying about a Haas CL-1 that I've been tasked with tooling up.
I decided it is best tooled up as if it were a gang machine, so LH boring bars for all external turning and threading.
Unknown to me, the company bought a bunch of inserts but there are no LH boring bars available for them...only 1/2" square stick tools.
So I built them one...and while I was at it, I built one for me too.
Here's what they look like:

Yesterday I found out how much one of these inserts costs:
Holy Crap...over sixty bucks.
I just about wet my panties.

At that price I am going to surrender this spare bar to them too so they can run it like this:

or like this:


or even like this:


They are nice, versatile inserts for plastic and aluminum (and threading obviously), but there are 250 bucks worth of inserts just in these four pictures alone.
I had high hopes for this in my setup too, until I saw the prices, and this it for TWO insert edges per insert.
Mind you, they're fully ground inserts, so I get they come with a bit of a premium price.
But I'm accustomed to paying half of that for six edges of the TNMG inserts I commonly buy for the turning I do.

What say you...am I being a baby for choking at the price of these?
What would YOU be willing to pay for something like this?

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[RJT]

We just paid $80. each for some CBN inserts. Is it carbide, CBN, diamond, ceramic? BTW we hard turned CPM15V 64 R/C with these and eliminated a grinding operation. Only took about .005" off two diameters on 85 parts , interupted cut, held .0003" tolerance with 1 side of 1 insert. So well worth the cost of the insert.

 

[ManualEd]

TBH, I've never even seen that style insert before.
I would have guessed closer to $100/insert.

Can you get away with using a less funky insert style? A top notch insert would get you similar results at 1/3 the insert cost.

 

[implmex]

Hi RJT:
These are bog standard carbide inserts, uncoated except for the threading insert.
For PCD and CBN and ceramic inserts, yeah I expect to pay handsomely.

Of course, the two boxes of each style they bought will probably last them a thousand lifetimes, but they dropped 2400 bucks on inserts and probably didn't even know it.
Never mind all the other inserts they got talked into buying.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[implmex]

Hi ManualEd:
Sadly, no...I opened the insert drawer and found them already bought, but no way to get them onto the lathe that I could approve of.
That's why I built the bars for them.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[TeachMePlease]

Those are Sandvik MAXR (Replace X with T for threading, B for backturn, C for cutoff, G for grooving) inserts. The price is a little high, if they had a better distributor they could pay less. They're phenomenal inserts, but I have to ask why they went that route when there's so many bars to hold a bog standard CCGT/DCGT/VCGT insert, and Sandvik makes laydown threading inserts as well. They're awesome in Swiss machines, I see no advantage to them in a gang tool chucker...

 

[TKassoc]

I use the Mitsubishi flavor of those for grooving and threading all the time. They're ~$40/insert in small quantities from my local distributor.

 

[implmex]

Hi TeachMePlease:
You wrote:
"but I have to ask why they went that route"

Persuasive salesman scenting an easy sale??
They have lots of other cool stuff too that I'm shaking my head about...like threadmills for M1 internal threads, 5 mm deep.
I don't think they can even touch them off on the Renishaw tool probe without snapping them off...they're like threads, and I can hardly even see them without the scope.

So yeah....it is what it is, but I wish they'd listened to me sooner, when money was still flowing freely.
Now I have to fight with the finance guys to buy basic endmills for the new DT-2.

We'll get there I'm sure, but it's not so easy.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[L Vanice]

Perhaps Marcus, who is in Canada, is stating prices in Canadian dollars. If so, keep in mind that 60 CAD = US$45.38. Canada prices might also reflect Canada import tariffs or taxes. Post #7 mentions a price of "-$40" in California for a similar Mitsubishi insert.

Larry

 

[implmex]

Good point LVanice:
I pulled the prices off the Canadian Sandvik website.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[CarbideBob]

In quantity one or even ten?
60 dollars. That is way steep if buying 100-500.
I just made one much like it in 10 but to special print. End price over $100 each.
Never thought I'd get the order and did not want it.
I lost money on the job. End job costing shows $28 per hour.
Worse I worry that it may come back. Well at least now I have the fixtures and programs in the grinders.

 

[implmex]

Hi CarbideBob:
These are not customs...they are stock items from the Sandvik catalogue.
I don't know what it takes to grind one up from a preform, but I'm guessing under a minute.
According to TeachMePlease they're intended for Swiss machines, so the market is probably quite small compared to those sold for conventional turning centers, but still...Sandvik is doing quite well off them.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[guythatbrews]

I use the parting style for tiny stuff on the swiss. But only for tiny stuff! Last time was about $43 US. When they last, they last, but it you break one end off the other is no good too since it locates in the holder off the opposite tip. I started using these when they weren't so gd expensive. It's about time for me to find a better solution for parting off.

IMO, its crazy to use such a $$$ thing if there is another option.

 

[bigjon61]

I use the parting style for tiny stuff on the swiss. But only for tiny stuff! Last time was about $43 US. When they last, they last, but it you break one end off the other is no good too since it locates in the holder off the opposite tip. I started using these when they weren't so gd expensive. It's about time for me to find a better solution for parting off.

IMO, its crazy to use such a $$$ thing if there is another option.

I reached out here a few months ago looking to replace our Sandvik Top-Lok style inserts with something more affordable. the TLG-3094 we use here in the shop is up over $40 as well. Only recommendation was Kennametal.

 

[CarbideBob]

I don't know what it takes to grind one up from a preform, but I'm guessing under a minute.

What? That would make you a god.
If you could do this you could make a lot of money in the insert world.
First you have to grind top and bottom on your Blanchard or other.
Then make it a rectangle on your Agas, Wendts, Wits or so much slower... surface grinders.
Now that you have a ground blank comes the end work.
On Sg's if a corner radius that is five cuts per end (old school).
The cnc swing machine is one op but still five cuts. This is about a minute per end once going but a hour in setup and size in.
In between is manual swing fixture for each side.

Hmm, coated. Min charge is $75 to $100 at one or two parts unless you are a very big repeat customer. Then it is 50 cents.

I can tell you the best cost in the USA for preforms at 5 to 10s if you can do all this other work.
At 15 pc (customer order was for 10 but I will loose some in process) price was $14.10 per part. Ended up with 13 good.

 

[Mtndew]

Sandvik is just like every other mfg, if you don't have a good rep, you're going to pay top price.
If we ordered that same insert it would most likely be almost half that price.

 

[implmex]

Hi again CarbideBob:
So far as I can tell, these inserts are made from near net shape preforms and are just kissed to clean up the surfaces and edges.
The holes look pressed as do the corners where the dovetails are relieved (they have 5 degree dovetails on the sides).

At the rate Sandvik makes inserts of all kinds, I always assumed the thicknesses are done in bulk on double disk grinders and they then go into a vibratory bowl to orient them and then onto a fixture to walk a diamond wheel around the profiles, just kissing them to clean them up.

Now obviously I know nothing about how they are done compared to what you know, but that is the process flow that makes sense to me.
I assume also, Sandvik makes tens of thousands of inserts a day and many of them have at least two ground faces, so do they not automate the whole process?

I'd love to hear how it's actually done, from pressed blank to finished insert, ground all over, say 1,000 per day.
On that note, here's a link to Sandvik's "How it's Made" video, but it doesn't show very much about the grinding process.

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[CarbideBob]

At the rate Sandvik makes inserts of all kinds, I always assumed the thicknesses are done in bulk on double disk grinders and they then go into a vibratory bowl to orient them and then onto a fixture to walk a diamond wheel around the profiles, just kissing them to clean them up.

Vibe bowl feeders in carbide inserts. Never seen that and it just sounds very bad.
Be very happy to detail the process from ore to finish and the options of big,mid,small maker.
But it would be a long post and I think few here care to know how the sausage is made.
I grind near 500 a day and that is a very small shop. Move the decimal point at least one or two over for the big guys.

 

[Overland]

I'm looking at some tee-slot cutters; found these from Iscar.
40 mm dia, 4 mm wide, coated in Magic dust I think.
The rep said 800+ fpm in 1018.
$190 ea from MSC, and a 6" holder is $170.
That's a lot of carbide, and they're ground and honed from what rep said.
Seems a great price compared to some small inserts.
Bob

 

[boslab]

You could fit 40k of inserts into a shoebox, I saw the box!
No wonder the sandvick rep was on site every day
Twice when he got wind of an ingersol van!
Mark