Sandvik inserts ...My GOD but they're expensive

[implmex]

Hi again CarbideBob:
You wrote:
"Vibe bowl feeders in carbide inserts. Never seen that and it just sounds very bad"

I did say I don't know how it's done, so I'm willing to be instructed.
My interest is in how an insert is picked up, mounted and gets the edges ground.
There's a blurb by Wida also on Youtube that appears to show a double disc grinder flattening insert preforms.
If they don't just get dumped in a vibratory bowl, I guess they get picked up by a robot right off the disc grinder and brought to the next machine to mount them and grind the outsides.
I'm assuming a pretty sophisticated vision system to orient the robot gripper so it can position them properly on a grid so they can be grabbed by another robot to position them in the next grinder for profiling.
I'm guessing you'd need a fair army of profile grinders to keep up with the output of a single double disc grinder.
That Widia video also shows an insert pinched between a driver and a tailstock..is that how everybody does it?

Cheers

Marcus
www.implant-mechanix.com
www.vancouverwireedm.com

 

[Aejgx6]

I'd like to see the long post.

 

[eKretz]

I'd like to see the long post.

Me too. I'd read the sh!t out of it.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Not much to add to the discussion about this particular insert but, Sandvik seems to me at least, to be the pinnacle of cutting information. Have you looked at their technical documentation? Seriously, go to their website and look at their knowledge base.

I can't find it now but, maybe ten years ago, I downloaded like a 350 page document on all the science that went into cutting technology. It's a full brain dump on what happens when cutting various materials and the methods employed to manage each unique problem. I printed the whole thing (hey, my employer wanted me to expand my knowledge--I expanded it), put it in a 3-ring binder and took it on a week-long business trip for something to read on the plane and at the hotel. It was not nearly as dry as it sounds.

Downloading a 155MB document right now. I think I found it. Yeah, this seems familiar:

Sandvik Coromant

www.sandvik.coromant.com

Look for the Training Handbook. One of two things will happen: you'll either be 100% sold on their technology or you'll be schooled on all that goes into whatever you use instead.

 

[CarbideBob]

While a bit biased and some fairy tales this is the best book I know of on carbide cutting tools.
https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Metal-Cutting-Practical-Handbook/dp/B000ARWOFM
It is a bit of a long read.
Outside that is the set from Victor Astakhov who posted here once for a couple days. That is heavy reading even for a cutting tool engineer.
This guy knows his shit. Not just inserts but big on drills, reamers, chip flow, formation, finish and burrs.
I read these big books and the above on vacation over and over. Each time I pick up new points or thoughts.
Day to day one does not have time for it. Make parts.
(Yes on vacation and laid back in the sun I read cutting tool books in my downtime... I think it great, the wife thinks me nutso.)

I'll try to put together a thing on the grinding of such parts, the whys and pitfalls.
Be warned in advace that I am a total expert in doing it wrong.
Bob

 

[eKretz]

While a bit biased and some fairy tales this is the best book I know of on carbide cutting tools.
https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Metal-Cutting-Practical-Handbook/dp/B000ARWOFM
It is a bit of a long read.
Outside that is the set from Victor Astakhov who posted here once for a couple days. That is heavy reading even for a cutting tool engineer.
This guy knows his shit. Not just inserts but big on drills, reamers, chip flow, formation, finish and burrs.
I read these big books and the above on vacation over and over. Each time I pick up new points or thoughts.
Day to day one does not have time for it. Make parts.
(Yes on vacation and laid back in the sun I read cutting tool books in my downtime... I think it great, the wife thinks me nutso.)

I'll try to put together a thing on the grinding of such parts, the whys and pitfalls.
Be warned in advace that I am a total expert in doing it wrong.
Bob

I've recommended that book here before. They have a couple others that are good, too:

Surface finish chart or example for manual machinists

Hell all, been gone awhile. I was looking online for a basic chart for manual machining. Basic guides like matte, shiny, mirror etc. I was also looking for the basic numerical guide that matches the finishes above. Yes.....I searched this topic and they all want me to have a Doctorate before I...

www.practicalmachinist.com

 

[CarbideBob]

eKretz seems to be a Sandy fan. That does make much sense from here.
That all good and some of those I taught now work for this absolutely great carbide and tooling company.
I have had some arguments/ disagreements with upper and the CEO but that was not bad. Just normal business. (respect is a two way street)
Also they now also own the PCD/CBN tips making in the Ohio. A great supplier even across the owners as it passed hands.
Talked to my guy inside Sandy and he said this maybe a hard sell against the market now.
"But you make the best and no worries" 50 cents or even a dollar not a problem for quality and done right.
Sumi up there in CBN, many China places now going after PCD all out.
What to do? Where to give up the loyalty to to a 40+ year supplier who put you in this?

Yes this price tag seems so crazy. Seems on the end of absurd. How can people charge this much for a simple carbide tool with only two usable ends?
I get that complaint in spades and why pay it. Not many options...

For sure I can make this . You would not want to see a 1 to 10 price.
500-1000 plus and then we are talking $12.00 range or lower.

 

[EmGo]

eKretz seems to be a Sandy fan.

We all like the inserts. It's the prices that are not so popular.

It's also possible that maybe the "run it as fast as possible, the greater performance makes up for the higher cost" theory does not always work out the best. I ended up doing much better financially running easier with much cheaper inserts.

Maybe that last 10% is not as special as we think it is ... at least in some cases.

 

[eKretz]

eKretz seems to be a Sandy fan.
That all good and some of those I taught now work for this absolutely great carbide and tooling company.

I like 'em if they work good... Don't much care whose name is on 'em. I like Seco/Carboloy too. Another budget brand...

Just happen to have a few good publications, Sandvik does. But I have reams of stuff like that, from lots of different sources.

 

[CarbideBob]

Sandvik is now maybe what Carboloy once was in the education side.
Kenna maybe went downhill a bit.
Iscar came up a lot from nothing but great stuff. That rise was rather amazing.
Mits and Sumo have some very good people on staff also.
Others also. Pick your flavor.
Is there a best and the go to? Price per tip may be high but "get it done fast, accurate and no problems".
That last phase "no problems" is sort of my goal.
I do fail sometimes (often). That is the very sad face and then I can not sleep for days or weeks wanting to know the whys.
Often on a tool test one gets no second try or not much feedback.Then you are shit, failed and just poop.

.

 

[innovativemonkey]

Relevant video on the Sandvik insert production process

Not very detailed but gives a general overview and a peek inside their facility

8:47 timestamp

 

[EmGo]

Relevant video on the Sandvik insert production process

Interesting. Possibly the largest masturbation facility in the world.

All this wonderfulness and their products are the most expensive in the market, and they are not worth it. Yes, beautiful stuff but in most cases, not the most economical or even best performing by any stretch of the imagination. For some people I am sure it's tits but for the average normal-products manufacturing, sandvik is gigantically overpriced, a giant waste of money. Many times, you can do better at Post Liquidators, or whoever is selling cheap cnmg's that week.

Wow, not a human in sight ... so what ? Take that and ten bucks and you can buy a latte at Starbucks. It's pointless wackoff stupidity.

Crazy.

 

[???]

Really interesting reading everyone's thoughts on this. The ability to squeeze out the last millisecond on a cycle is probably not high on my list in Australia. Now if I was running a little Chinese plant with 200 lathes trying to keep up with orders in the millions it would be a different story.

 

[EmGo]

if I was running a little Chinese plant with 200 lathes trying to keep up with orders in the millions it would be a different story.

Plants with 200 lathes don't care about milliseconds. They just add another five lathes at $7500 apiece and maybe ten more people. Maybe fifteen more people, if running three shifts.

Totally different setup.

Before I just thought Sandvik was expensive. Now I think they are expensive and stupid.

 

[CarbideBob]

Some things about the raw stock you use in making carbide inserts.
This powder is put in a die as seen in the video.
Single sided up/down are called "pill presses" and yes way back they were the same things that made aspirin or other pills.
Now we have fancy cross presses (big bucks) that press from the sides also for more shapes.
At this point the material is like chalk and way oversized.

On the insert first shown you get two choices.
Out of the die or get a preform.
So what is a preform. They are just a chunk pressed. Being like chalk one can easily cut, shape, drill at this stage of the process.
Dies run from $4000 to $16,000 each so this added manual step is cheaper on small batches.
On this insert I'd be buying preforms, Sandvik most certainly has the dies. Preforms get hand work done while soft.
On volume jobs I buy a die that sits in my vendor's plant but the volume has to be huge and no other customers are allowed to use my die set.

This stuff then comes to you with .012/.020 grind stock on all dimensions. Holes are in size.
Exception is "M" tolerance tools and pressed chipbreakers.
A CNMG comes to me pressed to size on the outside and all I have to do is grind the thickness, hone and coat. (known as a "S" in place of the M)
A CNGG will have the stock on the sides also so it gets ground on the outside (known as a "R" in place of the G)

As noted these thing shrink a lot in sintering and that is a bit of an art or learning curve. Different grades shrink differently.
The best analogy I can give is to take a jar of marbles coated with an 1/8 inch of wax.
Heat it up, the wax flows and the marbles sink as the wax flows to fill the voids.
How much wax (cobalt) you have and what size and shape marbles define how much shrink.
(Here we have more worthless rambling from Bob ... I've got carbide in my blood)

 

[BoxcarPete]

Some things about the raw stock you use in making carbide inserts.
This powder is put in a die as seen in the video.
Single sided up/down are called "pill presses" and yes way back they were the same things that made aspirin or other pills.
Now we have fancy cross presses (big bucks) that press from the sides also for more shapes.
At this point the material is like chalk and way oversized.

On the insert first shown you get two choices.
Out of the die or get a preform.
So what is a preform. They are just a chunk pressed. Being like chalk one can easily cut, shape, drill at this stage of the process.
Dies run from $4000 to $16,000 each so this added manual step is cheaper on small batches.
On this insert I'd be buying preforms, Sandvik most certainly has the dies. Preforms get hand work done while soft.
On volume jobs I buy a die that sits in my vendor's plant but the volume has to be huge and no other customers are allowed to use my die set.

This stuff then comes to you with .012/.020 grind stock on all dimensions. Holes are in size.
Exception is "M" tolerance tools and pressed chipbreakers.
A CNMG comes to me pressed to size on the outside and all I have to do is grind the thickness, hone and coat. (known as a "S" in place of the M)
A CNGG will have the stock on the sides also so it gets ground on the outside (known as a "R" in place of the G)

As noted these thing shrink a lot in sintering and that is a bit of an art or learning curve. Different grades shrink differently.
The best analogy I can give is to take a jar of marbles coated with an 1/8 inch of wax.
Heat it up, the wax flows and the marbles sink as the wax flows to fill the voids.
How much wax (cobalt) you have and what size and shape marbles define how much shrink.
(Here we have more worthless rambling from Bob ... I've got carbide in my blood)

So after sintering, is there a lot of cobalt on one side or all sides that you'll need to grind off again before the insert is usable?

 

[eKretz]

Interesting. Possibly the largest masturbation facility in the world.

All this wonderfulness and their products are the most expensive in the market, and they are not worth it. Yes, beautiful stuff but in most cases, not the most economical or even best performing by any stretch of the imagination. For some people I am sure it's tits but for the average normal-products manufacturing, sandvik is gigantically overpriced, a giant waste of money. Many times, you can do better at Post Liquidators, or whoever is selling cheap cnmg's that week.

Wow, not a human in sight ... so what ? Take that and ten bucks and you can buy a latte at Starbucks. It's pointless wackoff stupidity.

Crazy.

Not crazy, they're just trying to compete with manufacturers paying wages that are probably an order of magnitude (or more) lower. Once wages in those places go up it will look like a very smart move indeed, I think. The bigger question is whether that will happen while they're still in business. Kind of the only move they've got if they don't want a checkmate.

 

[EmGo]

Not crazy, they're just trying to compete with manufacturers paying wages that are probably an order of magnitude (or more) lower.

It's not wages. It's never been wages, that's just the crap that Lloyd and Jamie and the rest of wall street peddle because they want your money, as well as everyone else's. They are the only ones who deserve to get paid.

It's everything. The US is insanely overpriced in almost all respects. Property, in particular, is nuts. Health care. Transportation. Pretty much everything I can think of, and most of that money is not going to the people doing actual work.

To me, the proof that their idea is a failure is, their stuff costs more than anyone else on the planet. Yes it's nice but it's not that nice. They'll survive as long as people can charge big money for making F35's, but if they had to depend on places making actual product ? Right down the tubes.

 

[eKretz]

It's not wages. It's never been wages, that's just the crap that Lloyd and Jamie and the rest of wall street peddle because they want your money, as well as everyone else's. They are the only ones who deserve to get paid.

It's everything. The US is insanely overpriced in almost all respects. Property, in particular, is nuts. Health care. Transportation. Pretty much everything I can think of, and most of that money is not going to the people doing actual work.

To me, the proof that their idea is a failure is, their stuff costs more than anyone else on the planet. Yes it's nice but it's not that nice. They'll survive as long as people can charge big money for making F35's, but if they had to depend on places making actual product ? Right down the tubes.

Maybe not just in this particular part, I couldn't really say. But it's definitely wages that have something to do with it... Lots of hidden labor hours even in an insert. Not sure how you think they are inconsequential, having worked in a lot of shops for donkey's years...

Now of course that probably doesn't have *everything* to do with it, but it certainly has a substantial role. Another problem that I see being a factor is everyone trying to charge the most they can get rather than a price that sustains and grows the business without making a tycoon out of the owner. If you'd have left it at that, I'd have been more likely to side with you.

 

[EmGo]

^ Before Uncle Miltie came along, there were studies, publications, etc breaking out various costs and so on. Labor was generally around 15%, never more than 35% of the costs involved n making a product.

But every single time the powers-what-be talk about how they can't compete, it's because of "cheap labor". Umm, what about the other 70% of the costs ?

Like, bread is up 100% but we're going to pick out the price of yeast ? Remember when motionguru here was talking about his new building ? $600,000 in bribes before he could even get a permit? That's labor's fault ?

That's what I am saying. Always placing "cheap labor" as the underlying goat for the noncompetitive position of a product is usually not correct. Maybe for picking onions but nothing that requires more than that.

Let's take a few examples I know of. Golden Gate bridge, their precious suicide barrier is apparently going to cost 400 million now. SF city spent $265,000 each on six garbage cans so people could choose which one they like. What's the final one going to cost, a mere $50,000 each ? They spent one and a half million to install a donated, free, toilet in a park. This is just little stuff I know about.

How about corporate fuckups ? GM, of course, a few hundred billion, or whatever, that was because of decisions the floor sweepers made ? Tons of other corporations making equally stupid or even more stupid decisions at the top. Jac Nasser, anyone ? Electricity all over California never recovered from Enron - that's the fault of "expensive labor" ? How about health care costs, that's labor's fault as well ? And the biggest one, the price of property, rent, buildings, all that. Labor gets that ?

There are so many flockups and so much incompetence in the US and I guess other places, this thing with blaming labor for everything, it's just wrong. Maybe 20% I could go with but beyond that, forget it.

Or, remember American Apparel ? They paid everyone especially well and did great in Los Angeles with the highest labor costs in probably the world for that type of work -- until other factors caused their demise.

I just can't go along with the "cheap labor" excuse. It's not right.