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Schaublin 135 rebuilding project- ongoing thread

Regarding the preload / adjustment procedure of the front bearings, I definitely have some questions:

  1. The manual says "determine the value of both plays by the aid of a micrometer reading 0.001 mm". I assume what is meant here is dial indicator / dial gauge with 1 micron resolution. However, it does not tell you which procedure to use. for the radial play, just freely rotate the spindle by hand and measure the runout? or I should apply lateral force by pushing it by hand? how about the axial play measurement procedure?
  2. On steps #8,9, it says to reduce the thickness of the oil retainer (distance piece) and the thickness of the spacing ring. Does it mean these rings have to be machined on a surface grinder? Lapped?
  3. On Step #11 it mentions there are locating lines of the spindle and all the bearings. I don’t think I could identify these lines... what do you do with new bearings?
  4. On step #13 it says “tighten the nut”, but does not tell how much…
 

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Good work and you seem competent at figuring things out, hope the end result will be a great lathe and gives you years of enjoyment.
 
Aviv!
You're right, the front bearing does not look good, but you will find out soon enough when you slide the outer ring off, so you can inspect the rollers and the ring surfaces. Is it rust we see, or dirt and gunk? Soak well and wiggle back and forth.

The determination of the plays: When everything is assembled cleanly and lightly lubricated, and the nut is tightened so much that the inner ring is properly pulled up on the cone, and contacts the distance ring, then the plays are measured with a dial indicator. The spindle is not rotated, but wiggled back and forth and from end to end with firm force, not otherwise specified.(sorry, you will need some imaginative powers here).

The distance rings have to be adjusted in thickness on a surface grinder, they need to be absolutely parallell and precise to the 1/100mm or so. Maybe you need to take them to a friend or a professional, the process is rather quick and easy when you have the right machine and a micrometer.

The lines mentioned for aligning the bearings are etched on the outer ring on new matched precision bearing sets. The lines are rather faint, and may possibly wear away after repeated fittings.
Ole
 
Regarding the preload / adjustment procedure of the front bearings, I definitely have some questions:

  1. The manual says "determine the value of both plays by the aid of a micrometer reading 0.001 mm". I assume what is meant here is dial indicator / dial gauge with 1 micron resolution. However, it does not tell you which procedure to use. for the radial play, just freely rotate the spindle by hand and measure the runout? or I should apply lateral force by pushing it by hand? how about the axial play measurement procedure?

Yes, I do this with mag base indicator on the shaft, measuring radial play of the outer race. You are holding the shaft still, and moving the outer race to see how much free play, then compensating with the thickness of the ring. There is a lot of variables here, outer race od, housing size, hollow shaft ratio (shaft wall thickness), along with a few other variables, will get you close. All this gets taken into consideration when setting your spacer width to achieve a target mounted negative clearance (predetermined preload).

When it comes to axial Im not sure what you are questioning. The new thrust bearing will come ground to a particular preload once tightened up.
  1. On steps #8,9, it says to reduce the thickness of the oil retainer (distance piece) and the thickness of the spacing ring. Does it mean these rings have to be machined on a surface grinder? Lapped?
Surface ground to required thickness. Within a few microns is fine, flatness is paramount along with concentricity.
  1. On Step #11 it mentions there are locating lines of the spindle and all the bearings. I don’t think I could identify these lines... what do you do with new bearings?
Should not have to be concerned with those.
  1. On step #13 it says “tighten the nut”, but does not tell how much…
Good luck finding actual data on that, likely no one will have that spec.
 
Update Jan 20th 2024

tl;dr - the front roller bearing is ruined, the other seem OK. Everything was well cleaned.

Today I disassembled all the bearings for cleaning and inspection. The thrust bearing looks visually OK and feels in a good condition, was relatively clean. It has some special markings scribed on it. I think the x marks designate the left set of races, where on this set's cage I could not see this markings. One half is marked with -7 and the other half is marked -10, which I’m not sure what these mean.
In any case, I laid down all the components to order and maintained this order all the cleaning process.

The cleaning procedure involved rubbing and rinsing all parts with a diesel fuel and toothbrush. Then blowing the parts with compresses air and repeating the process. I replaced the diesel fuel multiple times until no dirt would come out and the fuel remained clear and maintained its color. Then I blew it again and gave it a final rinse with IPA-Methanol mix. The blew it again, pull in oil and put immediately into a clean zipper nylon bag. As I’m not a professional spindle builder, w/o the luxury of changing to a cleaner area, I had to create myself a “sterile field” where I covered the work area with clean cardboard and towels, that were replaced between each and every stage. The final cleaning stages were done as quickly as possible and the bearing went quickly into the sealed bag.

The front dual roller bearing is in a bad shape. A lot of dirt came out of it, and outer race is corroded in all contact points, same as the rolling cylinders. comparing to the other bearings, this one has non-metallic cage. It came very clear that this bearing has to be replaced. After a thorough clean with brush and diesel fuel a lot of dirt and particles came out, but the bearing still not spin. I had to slide the rollers from side to side and rub the exposed corroded areas with Scotch Brite (I know it scratched the surface, but the bearing is ruined anyway). Then after a while I could release the outer race, rub all parts to the point the bearing could spin again and no dirt would come out. It spins, but the corroded areas can be felt by the finger, as well as non-smooth and noisy spinning can be observed.

Regarding the other roller bearing on the rear end (NN 3012) with the light corrosion mark, I think it still can be used. There is only one spot of light corrosion that most of it I could clean. Only two rollers and a specific area of the race were affected.

First, I’m amazed how strong this bearing was seized, as before opening and cleaning there was no chance to move the spindle. The feeling of the “magnets” I could feel was due to this bearing, which is still a surprising feeling to someone who never came across such a case.

Some forethoughts- While there is no doubt that this bearing must be replaced, I’m bit hesitated how to proceed. I have a some thought about putting the spindle back again with the current bearings, including the faulty one for these reasons-

  • I want to practice the assembly process to make sure I understand how to do it and come across all the nuances. As well as making sure I have the right tools for proper installation.
  • I expect that no matter how much effort I put into cleaning the lubrication system, there is no chance I can completely clean all the small oil passages inside the headstock and the other parts of the system. I expect that while running for a while, some dirt, particles and moisture will flow into the spindle. I will have to make few frequent oil exchanges, but I expect that for completeness and longevity of the bearings It is preferable will have to open the spindle again anyway and re-clean the bearings
  • I don’t know for sure which other issues I might came across with this lathe and in case of another severe issue, I don’t want to wase my money.
  • Once the procedure is known, opening the spindle (even with the headstock and the gearbox in place) does not seem to be that big deal. I think I can do it quite quicky.
Makes sense or I’m completely off here?
As always, here are some pictures. Any feedback is welcome.

Aviv.
 

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As long as there is no chance of damaging the main spindle then I think the process to do a 'trail' fit with the cleaned existing bearings is a good call and something I would do myself given the situation. I'm no expert but maybe others can give a more informed comment around this suggested test run.

I think your process and work is superb and its great to see more info about the 135 and how to tackle key jobs 👍
 
I agree with Marc, try to clean everything up the best you can, and reassemble. Look through the other parts of the lathe without spending a fortune on parts. Clean the oil reservoir, look at the filter with the brass mesh filter, how is the the oil there?? Does the oil pump work at all? Try and see if you can get the whole thing running and working without big investments. I have been using https://simplybearings.co.uk for parts, but there may be better choices in your part of the world. Then you may decide to keep the lathe and use it yourself with its known shortcomings, restore it more thoroughly, or sell it for profit. Mind you, these lathes do command hefty prices internationally, even in moderate condition.
Ole
 
If you need any bearings from SimplyBearings as they are UK based let me know as happy to sort and post. I use them myself and are reliable and quick generally.
 
272.60 pounds plus vat for a new bearing at SimplyBearings. Your lathe is probably worth around $5000 in Europe as it is now. (my guess).
 
If you know very little about the rest of the machine I think its a good plan (and a good exercise) to reassemble, and go through the rest of the machine before you throw serious money at the spindle. At least then you can stack up all the issues and costs to know if youre making a decent investment.
 
Thanks for your support. It’s highly appreciated to have such a great support from the community.

Almost unbelievable, with a hint from a dear friend I managed to find an identical bearing in the scrap yard from which I purchased the lathe. Inside a box with old, rusty, new-in-box, etc. assortment of bearings, there it was laying. No bag, no box, with some surface rust points on the outer race. From a first look, it seems that the bearing was not in use. I will clean it and then check if it was damaged by uncontrolled handling, but in any case it’s much much better than my current bearing. Practically, I got it for almost free. Maybe I might get lucky…
 

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There is a product called Evaporust that I use on beariings to prevent using abrasives. It will discolor the bearing a little but disolvess the rust..
They may have a similar product where you live.
 
Evaporust is good stuff, used it on my 135 as part of the cleaning process and will use it on the Aciera F3 mill I have just bought and are renovating 👍
 
Side discussion regarding the spindle bearing setup:
 
This Saturday I decided to take some break from the spindle and make some further cleaning and preparation of the headstock. The counter gear bearings felt a bit too loose and noisy, so I decided to pull them out. Also to take out (almost) everything from the headstock, so I can clean all the residue from its internal walls. The headcsock internal area has few passages and cavities, so unless fully submerged in a solvent it’s virtually impossible to clean it completely manually. I hope that multiple frequent oil changes later will do the rest. The countershaft and the shifting forks axles have M8 bore, which can be used to pull them out.
Two set screw from the rear side of the headstock keep the shift axles in place. Another set screw on the top of the headstock holds the driving pulley-gear combo in place.
On the bottom of the headstock, there is an aluminium cover. Mine has a lot of pitting corrosion (probably from coolant). and will be replaced. Below the headstock and the gearbox there are drain passages, which were completely blocked by gunk.
 

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This Saturday I decided to take some break from the spindle and make some further cleaning and preparation of the headstock. The counter gear bearings felt a bit too loose and noisy, so I decided to pull them out. Also to take out (almost) everything from the headstock, so I can clean all the residue from its internal walls. The headcsock internal area has few passages and cavities, so unless fully submerged in a solvent it’s virtually impossible to clean it completely manually. I hope that multiple frequent oil changes later will do the rest. The countershaft and the shifting forks axles have M8 bore, which can be used to pull them out.
Two set screw from the rear side of the headstock keep the shift axles in place. Another set screw on the top of the headstock holds the driving pulley-gear combo in place.
On the bottom of the headstock, there is an aluminium cover. Mine has a lot of pitting corrosion (probably from coolant). and will be replaced. Below the headstock and the gearbox there are drain passages, which were completely blocked by gunk.
btw, the reasons behind the substandard quality and inconsistencies in Schaublin's manuals, an intriguing fact emerges: Schaublin lost a significant portion of its original documentation during an office relocation in the early 2000s. This lost archive included manuals, catalogs, drawings, and unique designs, predominantly for machines predating 1995. These documents, once available in English, German, and French, represented the most comprehensive and high-quality resources for these machines. However, Schaublin did not digitize these vital assets prior to their loss.

Although Schaublin still retains the blueprints and basic descriptions of their machinery, recreating the manuals has been challenging. By the time these documents were lost, many of the machines they pertained to had become less central to Schaublin's ongoing operations. As a result, the company focused on restoring manuals for only a handful of their most popular machines. Moreover, when complete documents were recreated, they were generally available only in German.

I am currently engaged in a painstaking project to scour the web for any distinct images of manuals and drawings by Schaublin, aiming to centralize and digitize them. This task involves reconstructing these manuals with clarity, enhancing image quality using Photoshop, and transforming drawings into vector graphics. The process is time-consuming, primarily due to the limitations of Optical Character Recognition (OCR) technology, which struggles with accurately converting texts, particularly those that are handwritten or in poor condition. Despite these challenges, progress is being made, albeit slowly.

Interestingly, despite Schaublin's sporadic and somewhat disorganized release of information over the years, a considerable amount of material has been accumulated. For instance, for the Schaublin 102-VM model, in German, there are approximately 500 distinct pages, reducing to 400 when redundancies are removed. I am nearing completion of the 102-VM manual.

In conclusion, if you require information on a Schaublin machine from the 70 to 160 series, feel free to reach out to me, and I will provide the best available resources.
 
btw, the reasons behind the substandard quality and inconsistencies in Schaublin's manuals, an intriguing fact emerges: Schaublin lost a significant portion of its original documentation during an office relocation in the early 2000s. This lost archive included manuals, catalogs, drawings, and unique designs, predominantly for machines predating 1995. These documents, once available in English, German, and French, represented the most comprehensive and high-quality resources for these machines. However, Schaublin did not digitize these vital assets prior to their loss.

Although Schaublin still retains the blueprints and basic descriptions of their machinery, recreating the manuals has been challenging. By the time these documents were lost, many of the machines they pertained to had become less central to Schaublin's ongoing operations. As a result, the company focused on restoring manuals for only a handful of their most popular machines. Moreover, when complete documents were recreated, they were generally available only in German.

I am currently engaged in a painstaking project to scour the web for any distinct images of manuals and drawings by Schaublin, aiming to centralize and digitize them. This task involves reconstructing these manuals with clarity, enhancing image quality using Photoshop, and transforming drawings into vector graphics. The process is time-consuming, primarily due to the limitations of Optical Character Recognition (OCR) technology, which struggles with accurately converting texts, particularly those that are handwritten or in poor condition. Despite these challenges, progress is being made, albeit slowly.

Interestingly, despite Schaublin's sporadic and somewhat disorganized release of information over the years, a considerable amount of material has been accumulated. For instance, for the Schaublin 102-VM model, in German, there are approximately 500 distinct pages, reducing to 400 when redundancies are removed. I am nearing completion of the 102-VM manual.

In conclusion, if you require information on a Schaublin machine from the 70 to 160 series, feel free to reach out to me, and I will provide the best available resources.
Dear Mr. von Ludendorff,

Thank you very much for providing the background to the limited information available for older Schaublin's machines. It's really interesting.
Mr. Ole Steen who is an active participant in this (and other) thread was kind enough to share a respectable collection of documents. You can check it here:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...al-schaublin-135-purchase.419001/post-4151429

I would be highly interested in any other service and other documentation regarding Schaublin's 135 Lathe. If possible to share here, it would be great. Otherwise I'll PM you.

Many thanks,
Aviv.
 








 
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