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Shopping for a 5 axis mill: DMG Monoblock 85 vs Okuma MU6300 vs Maatsura MAM 72, vs ?

JDMT

Plastic
Joined
Apr 28, 2022
We are looking at a getting a new 5 axis mill. Currently we cut 95% 6061, but we plan to start making some of these parts out of steel once we get the new machine.

We have quite a bit of experience with 5 axis machines. We had a UMC750 for a couple years, we sold replaced with a Doosan DVF5000 that is served with a robot and runs production parts for us. We currently have a UMC 1000 that we have been doing mostly prototyping and odd jobs on, but it isn't accurate and rigid enough to use as a production machine for our new product line.

Speaking of which, the main parts driving this purchase are one piece that is basically a rectangle 23 x 18 x 2 inches. Nothing critical/tight tolerance wise, but it does have 5 axis features. The other is a square, 20 x 20 x 4 inches with a couple of faces that need to be flat and parallel within a 0.001 over the 20 inches and a large bore that needs to be positionally and dimensionally within 0.0005. This second part will be made out of steel eventually on the new machine.

The machine needs to be able to be equipped with an automation system, preferably a pallet cell. We intend to run lights out with it like we currently are with the Doosan.

The machine needs to be able to handle tools at least 14 inches long in the tool changer.

Our pad is currently only 5-6 inches thick. We are going to rip it out in put in a proper foundation under whatever tool we get.

Machines we are looking at

The DMG and Okuma are pretty close in price (about$700-800k for the machine and pushing $1M with the automation). The Maatsura is a bit more ($1.2 ish total with automation)

DMG Monoblock 85 or 95 equipped with PH cell
- Haven't decided between the Siemens or the Heidenhein control. I think we could learn either one and don't have a strong preference after seeing both in person.
- The machine looks awesome and it is impressive how small the footprint is
- The travels are bigger than we need, but we had to go up to this size from the 65 in order to get the tool length we need
- I am only aware of one shop in our area that has any DMG machines and they are lathes. Another shop had a mill, had a terrible service and support experience and got rid of it.
- We are also considering the 65H, but it actually costs more than the vertical 85/95 machines

Okuma MU6300 with Fastems Pallet system
- The machine looks like a beast. Everything on it is massive.
- The footprint of this machine is a lot bigger than the DMG especially withe the Fastems pallet system which ends up sitting behind the machine making not jut wide but also deep. It would be a really tight squeeze to get it into our current shop space, and it would block in the machines behind it.
- The control is a bit different, but not really in a bad way from what I have seen
- Three shops in our area that I am aware of have Okuma mills, and all have had a very good experience with them, two of them have smaller 5 axis machines.


Maatsura MAM72 with PC18
- Similar to the Okuma, beastly machine
- I like the operator access a lot more than the Okuma
- The machine and pallet system are aligned so it is longer than, but not as deep as the Okuma arrangement
- Honestly don't know as much about this machine as the others. Saw it at IMTS and decided to quote it out.
- It has a Fanuc 31i control which is the same on as the control on the DVF5000 we have. However we hate that controller and we really want something other than Fanuc our next tool. Engraving is next to impossible on our Doosan and doing anything takes 10+ button pushes.


Any thoughts on these machines? Any others I should look at?

As far as service and support goes, should I have any concerns about that? I am located in Montana in case that helps.
 
I wouldn't even consider a MAM. Old design. You either get a lame Fanuc controller, or a poorly supported Siemens controller. Pretty meh platform.

Have a customer that is very happy with their Okuma MU6300's on a pallet pool. We have a M560V. Okuma OSP300 is better than a FANUC, but not by much. Good iron though. Gosiger support is fantastic.

We have a DMU50 and a DMU75. The '75 is equipped for a PH150, but the pallet pool still has not delivered, so I can't vouch for it's quality. I can say that both machines have really good bones. The speedmaster spindle is really *really* good. We have both Siemens and HH in our shop - I prefer the Siemens quite a bit, and it is DMG's most frequently used controller. IME the Germans don't always sweat the details so much. Machines are more likely to ship with small lingering issues. Your experience would likely be dictated by the quality of DMG MORI service/support in your area.
 
I wouldn't even consider a MAM. Old design. You either get a lame Fanuc controller, or a poorly supported Siemens controller. Pretty meh platform.

Have a customer that is very happy with their Okuma MU6300's on a pallet pool. We have a M560V. Okuma OSP300 is better than a FANUC, but not by much. Good iron though. Gosiger support is fantastic.

We have a DMU50 and a DMU75. The '75 is equipped for a PH150, but the pallet pool still has not delivered, so I can't vouch for it's quality. I can say that both machines have really good bones. The speedmaster spindle is really *really* good. We have both Siemens and HH in our shop - I prefer the Siemens quite a bit, and it is DMG's most frequently used controller. IME the Germans don't always sweat the details so much. Machines are more likely to ship with small lingering issues. Your experience would likely be dictated by the quality of DMG MORI service/support in your area.
Thanks for the reply. Have you had good experience with the service over there in Oregon? With us being "out in the boonies" or service will likely either be out of Denver, Salt Lake or somewhere on the West Coast. Where does your service come out of?

Thanks for the notes on the controllers. I am leaning toward the Siemens control because of the broader user and installation base.
 
I have had fantastic results with our local DMG MORI support out of Portland, OR. The DMG factory(s) are usually an absolute PITA to deal with, but the local team does a pretty good job running interference. They are probably the best support crew in this region, though I think the only real competition is Gosiger or the Makino distributor.

Most of the DMG MORI horror stories seem to be related to service/support, so YMMV.
 
Given those choices, my money would be on Okuma. The OSP is a wild control and can process data very fast. The machine itself is rock solid and build like a freight train.
 
The DMG and Okuma are pretty close in price (about$700-800k for the machine and pushing $1M with the automation).
One million is the price for the machine + automation? Or do they want 700k for the machine and another 1m for automation?
- The travels are bigger than we need, but we had to go up to this size from the 65 in order to get the tool length we need
You can request the option to install long tools. Most likely, you will have no more than 2-3 long tools in the magazine. I'm not sure if the DMG has this option, but if it does, it should cost a lot less than the next size machine.
- I am only aware of one shop in our area that has any DMG machines and they are lathes. Another shop had a mill, had a terrible service and support experience and got rid of it.
I've heard terrible things about DMG service in the US many times. It seems that I have never heard so much negativity about any other machine tool service..... On the other hand, it is the largest machine tool holding. More sales equals more negative reviews, simple math.
- Haven't decided between the Siemens or the Heidenhein control. I think we could learn either one and don't have a strong preference after seeing both in person.
- It has a Fanuc 31i control which is the same on as the control on the DVF5000 we have. However we hate that controller and we really want something other than Fanuc our next tool. Engraving is next to impossible on our Doosan and doing anything takes 10+ button pushes.
I understand your suffering..... After working on Sinumerik, I come to Fanuc with tears. BUT! As far as I know Fanuc CNC is much more common in the USA. It's not a problem to buy some kind of spare part, or call a third-party service - and it's fast. Siemens has recently shown not the best terms for deliveries and service. On the other hand, OSB is the most closed CNC of these three.
Maatsura MAM72 with PC18
In the last couple of years I hear a lot of complaints about Matsuura spindles. Not only in the USA, but also in Europe.
I also really like their working space inside the machine, it's really convenient to work there.


My advice is to find out more about the service and spare parts warehouses from DMG and Okuma, in your region. If by this indicator they are the same, I would choose DMG.
 
We are looking at a getting a new 5 axis mill. Currently we cut 95% 6061, but we plan to start making some of these parts out of steel once we get the new machine.

We have quite a bit of experience with 5 axis machines. We had a UMC750 for a couple years, we sold replaced with a Doosan DVF5000 that is served with a robot and runs production parts for us. We currently have a UMC 1000 that we have been doing mostly prototyping and odd jobs on, but it isn't accurate and rigid enough to use as a production machine for our new product line.

Speaking of which, the main parts driving this purchase are one piece that is basically a rectangle 23 x 18 x 2 inches. Nothing critical/tight tolerance wise, but it does have 5 axis features. The other is a square, 20 x 20 x 4 inches with a couple of faces that need to be flat and parallel within a 0.001 over the 20 inches and a large bore that needs to be positionally and dimensionally within 0.0005. This second part will be made out of steel eventually on the new machine.

The machine needs to be able to be equipped with an automation system, preferably a pallet cell. We intend to run lights out with it like we currently are with the Doosan.

The machine needs to be able to handle tools at least 14 inches long in the tool changer.

Our pad is currently only 5-6 inches thick. We are going to rip it out in put in a proper foundation under whatever tool we get.

Machines we are looking at

The DMG and Okuma are pretty close in price (about$700-800k for the machine and pushing $1M with the automation). The Maatsura is a bit more ($1.2 ish total with automation)

DMG Monoblock 85 or 95 equipped with PH cell
- Haven't decided between the Siemens or the Heidenhein control. I think we could learn either one and don't have a strong preference after seeing both in person.
- The machine looks awesome and it is impressive how small the footprint is
- The travels are bigger than we need, but we had to go up to this size from the 65 in order to get the tool length we need
- I am only aware of one shop in our area that has any DMG machines and they are lathes. Another shop had a mill, had a terrible service and support experience and got rid of it.
- We are also considering the 65H, but it actually costs more than the vertical 85/95 machines

Okuma MU6300 with Fastems Pallet system
- The machine looks like a beast. Everything on it is massive.
- The footprint of this machine is a lot bigger than the DMG especially withe the Fastems pallet system which ends up sitting behind the machine making not jut wide but also deep. It would be a really tight squeeze to get it into our current shop space, and it would block in the machines behind it.
- The control is a bit different, but not really in a bad way from what I have seen
- Three shops in our area that I am aware of have Okuma mills, and all have had a very good experience with them, two of them have smaller 5 axis machines.


Maatsura MAM72 with PC18
- Similar to the Okuma, beastly machine
- I like the operator access a lot more than the Okuma
- The machine and pallet system are aligned so it is longer than, but not as deep as the Okuma arrangement
- Honestly don't know as much about this machine as the others. Saw it at IMTS and decided to quote it out.
- It has a Fanuc 31i control which is the same on as the control on the DVF5000 we have. However we hate that controller and we really want something other than Fanuc our next tool. Engraving is next to impossible on our Doosan and doing anything takes 10+ button pushes.


Any thoughts on these machines? Any others I should look at?

As far as service and support goes, should I have any concerns about that? I am located in Montana in case that helps.
GF mikron Mill P800 or Hermle C52/62
 
Have you looked at Grob? It looks like your parts will fit on G350 machine. They have 10 pallet systems. Either Siemens or Heidenhain control. Grob machines are especially great for long tools since their Z axis is like a tunnel and the tool change is performed inside the tunnel so there is no fear of hitting the part during tool change.
 
Have you looked at Grob? It looks like your parts will fit on G350 machine. They have 10 pallet systems. Either Siemens or Heidenhain control. Grob machines are especially great for long tools since their Z axis is like a tunnel and the tool change is performed inside the tunnel so there is no fear of hitting the part during tool change.
The machines are very robust as well.
 
One million is the price for the machine + automation? Or do they want 700k for the machine and another 1m for automation?

You can request the option to install long tools. Most likely, you will have no more than 2-3 long tools in the magazine. I'm not sure if the DMG has this option, but if it does, it should cost a lot less than the next size machine.

I've heard terrible things about DMG service in the US many times. It seems that I have never heard so much negativity about any other machine tool service..... On the other hand, it is the largest machine tool holding. More sales equals more negative reviews, simple math.


I understand your suffering..... After working on Sinumerik, I come to Fanuc with tears. BUT! As far as I know Fanuc CNC is much more common in the USA. It's not a problem to buy some kind of spare part, or call a third-party service - and it's fast. Siemens has recently shown not the best terms for deliveries and service. On the other hand, OSB is the most closed CNC of these three.

In the last couple of years I hear a lot of complaints about Matsuura spindles. Not only in the USA, but also in Europe.
I also really like their working space inside the machine, it's really convenient to work there.


My advice is to find out more about the service and spare parts warehouses from DMG and Okuma, in your region. If by this indicator they are the same, I would choose DMG.
Thanks for the feedback.

It is about $700k for the machine and about $200-250 for the automation.

Adding the capability to use long tools didn't seem to be an option with DMG when we asked about it.

I have also heard mostly negative things about DMG service. It sounds like we would be served out of their Chicago office so if someone has experience working with them that would be interesting to hear. Our Okuma service is out of Denver, but their main parts warehouse is in North Carolina.
 
Have you looked at Grob? It looks like your parts will fit on G350 machine. They have 10 pallet systems. Either Siemens or Heidenhain control. Grob machines are especially great for long tools since their Z axis is like a tunnel and the tool change is performed inside the tunnel so there is no fear of hitting the part during tool change.
No I haven't other than a cursory review of their website. Do you have an idea of what the cost would be relative to the machines we are looking at? It would be ideal to stay in the same ballpark.
 
For the size of parts the OP is talking about he may be better served with a G550, you get the hsk100 spindle which will be nice for the steel parts. Plus it'll better accommodate swinging a part 20" in diameter. And you can load tools 465mm (18.3") long. That will be closer to 1.1-1.2M with a pallet pool.

Also, you'll absolutely need a slab poured for either the G350 or G550, 350 weighs 34,000lbs by itself and the 550 is 58,000lbs.
 
I had GROB onsite last week, I'd plan for 900k+ for a palletized machine from them

IMO on par with Mikron / DMG
they most definitely are. my only personal gripe with grob is spindle selection, 16k rpm standard which has decent torque, but the GF steptec 20k spindle kills it in both power and speed. or you can get the 22k rpm one, which is absolutely laughable, you wont be cutting steels with it, no guts at all. and a personal downside for myself is siemens control vs heidenhain. but otherwise fantastic machines!
 
they most definitely are. my only personal gripe with grob is spindle selection, 16k rpm standard which has decent torque, but the GF steptec 20k spindle kills it in both power and speed. or you can get the 22k rpm one, which is absolutely laughable, you wont be cutting steels with it, no guts at all. and a personal downside for myself is siemens control vs heidenhain. but otherwise fantastic machines!
You can get a Siemens 840D or a HH TNC 640 with Grob.

I do agree that there spindles are a bit more niche, not really a one size fits all. To be fair though the 16k Grob (206NM) does have way more lowend than the 20k GF (120NM).

If the OP is using 14+" tools and cutting steel the HSK100 is almost mandatory, only really drawback is you're capped at 13k rpm which can slow you down a bit in aluminum, but you can take bigger cuts so YMMV.
 
So you said nothing negative about the one Doosan you have already...only the Haas's. So are these parts to complicated to look at a Doosan 5axis? More same brand machines= better tech support.
 
Not sure if you went to IMTS but I was talking to some of the guys at the Modig booth and those new IM series machine seem pretty slick. Rumor mill pricing for an IM-6 is 600k-900k depending on options. They offer automation too.

Don't want to keep throwing out different machines if you've already been shopping around, but you mentioned the DMU 65H. Would you be interested in a 5 axis horizontal? Something like a Starrag Heckert X50 or a Heller HF3500, DMG DMC 60H linear.
 
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