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Starting a "garage shop"......good idea ???

Rockfish,

I agree with jackal. There are many niche markets. Find the mnf companies in your area that run multiple shifts and have machinery that can & will go down. They don't care about cost, they don't care if there replacement part is made on a 200K CNC, a 2K manual or chiseled out with a beaver tooth duct taped to a welding rod. They just want it done quickly and correctly. Larger production shops often can't work these guys into their schedule easily and the little guy can fill this niche perfectly. As a bonus you get $100+/hr vs. $30/hr. In our area, it's chicken processing plants. We got tons of 'em and they all have equipment with bearing/shafts/cams, ect. All Stainless of course. They all have maintenance departments & many of them have equipment, but they still farm out a ton of machining every month. I would guess that the poultry industry in just NW Arkansas spends 200K/month or more on outside machining. This number could be even a low estimate.

One things for sure, if you are supplementing your income & you purchase your startup equipment wisely (sounds like you did), you can't really go backwards. You will get some work, make some money, maybe it will work great, maybe not. If it doesn't you can sell your equipment for the same amount you have in it most likely and just be out a little time doing something you enjoy anyway.

Oh BTW, I don't know crap about machining. I have never worked in much less owned a machine shop. However, I do own my own electronic manufacturing business that started small and now does fairly well with 40+ employees. We spend about $200/month on machining with a local semi-retired machinist. Most of it he does on his manual equipment. However, one job, he actually programmed his CNC to do the 20 pieces.

Lenny
 
The easy part is making the parts.

The tough part is getting the work.
Plus all the other stuff.

Manual machines for certain functions are great.
but, you should really get some kind of knee or bed mill with a three axis control ( millpower or prototrak) these simple cnc's become your hired hands. posibly some kind of cnc lathe prototrak, hardinge conversion others. you should be able to be making parts in one or two days.

Then when a customer asks you, do you have cnc? You can answer, yes! (they expect consistancy )

try not to buy a lot of junk that is going to take up space and time, and need fixing when you need it to be chipping.

I lost all my equipment when I lost my Factory. (most favored trading with China).

I started with manual machines and worked 7 days a week for the better part of three years.( rotary table ) Along the way the 2nd miller was a sharp cnc knee mill. Still worked long hours but the cash flow went positive. after all it is a business. Last year I bought a Harrison Alpha lathe with 8 station turret. I was sending out about $40,000.00 a year in lathe work that I could not do in the old hardinge chucker. plus I could no longer aford to stand in front of one machine all day. Now,I program the lathe,load a part and go to the knee mill,load a part. my new Hurco vm1 got here sat. hope to get it up and running this week. Load a part, work on a quote, load apart, call a customer , load apart, invoice , pay bills, order material online. O ya load a hunk of steel in the deckel, mill one end, Power feed.

by the way conversational controls are a great way to get into cnc. some of them even let you use alittle G-code for those times when the canned routines can't do what you want.

The other thing, the work you could be looking at to quote. The designers are designing in features that maybe can be done manualy (given enough time) but in a lot of caes what might take minutes on a cnc could take hours or days manualy. angles blended to a radius to a reverse radius with tight tolerances.

Take your time with your purchases, I certainly have had my share of machines that I bought, where there were much better choices.

Good Luck,

Wiz
 
by the way conversational controls are a great way to get into cnc. some of them even let you use alittle G-code for those times when the canned routines can't do what you want.
My Conversational Hurco has served me well, for over 10 years.. I have been able to do almost anything that came across... And as far as the real funky things I had to turn down/refer to other shops. they were usually nightmare jobs anyhow...
 
edit: wiz and davis posted in the time that it took me to type my post, I also wanted to mention that my intro to "CNC" machines was on a converted knee mill. I started on a 2 axis Prototrak, and learned from there. Good post by wiz, must be something in the water!

Rockfish,

Seems you've received some worthwhile advice from the members... All I can offer is an analogy to a similar situation I've been in. For any that don't already know I own my shop and a product line, and because of that I don't sleep much since I'm constantly stressing about all of things that it takes to keep a business running. One of the things I have stressed about in the past, was learning to run/operate/program CNC machines. But, when your back is up against the wall you sure as **** do what ever it takes to overcome. So, now I know how to make money with the CNC machines that I now own. I also know how to wire up a 3 phase machine, wire up a phase converter, etc, etc, etc. How often do people ask you how do you know that, or how did you learn to do that? Chances are, you've learned your fair share of the tricks of many trades over the years, it's in your nature, you're a machinist. Our minds work in different ways than others, we solve complex problems (usually created by ME's, but thats another thread I think).

I guess I could summarize it like this, hind sight is 20/20, but when it's all said and done, I don't know why I've stressed in the first place. I've learned that I have the skill set to get the things done that need to be done, and I'll bet you do too. Before you know it, you're going to be giving someone CNC advice... Good Luck!
 
Definately Learn CNC, you have to stay upto date
and instride with the industry. But at the same
time, start your business with what you can
afford, and also with what you know. Like others
here have sugested, find a "niche". There will
always be a market for manual, you just have to
find it. The heaviest loss of manufacturing, is
in the Great Lakes region. Once the hub of the
automotive industry, manufacturing has met it's
demise due to cheaper off shore competition. Even
Ford in Oshawa is closing it's doors, as did
Celanees,Bombardire, Norcom. My point is, there
is work, maybe not in mass production, but in
other services & sectors, you just have to use
your imagination.
Jamie
 
"I would guess that the poultry industry in just NW Arkansas spends 200K/month or more on outside machining. This number could be even a low estimate."

Seriously?

I could invest in a shop that had a foot in the door of that chicken house.
 
i wouldn't worry too much about the opinions of the people who are telling you you're nuts. more than likely none of them have ever actually tried to strike out on their own. if you try and fail, well then you're right back where you are now. all my friends thought i was an idiot for spending all my money on tools, i have more work than i can handle coming at me and i don't even look for it. i don't do machine work but the point is screw the naysayers.
 
How true. I quit my moldmaker job and went full-time in the garage 8 years ago. Everyone that told me I couldn't do it was employed by someone else. Everyone that encouraged me was working for themselves. I have all manual machines, but also have quite a bit of CNC experience, enough to know the difference between a CNC job and a "Bridgeport" job. I don't compete against the CNC shops. I can't. I don't even try. Instead, I work WITH the CNC shops. I have been doing work for a couple local shops that job out manual type work to me to get it out of their hair. Some milling and turning, lots of grinding. My shop rate is lower than theirs, so they make a profit doing this anyhow. There is lots of work out there for a manual shop with a sharp machinist or toolmaker, you just need to find your niche.

Also, do learn the CNC and CAD. It will not only make you more employable, but it will allow you to know when CNC is faster and cheaper and when manual machines should be used. Each is a tool that should be used as necessary. Learn how to do as much as possible. I machine, design, fabricate, weld, work with sheetmetal, whatever.. I have gotten jobs before where I wasn't the cheapest just because I was the only one willing to do everything involved with the project.
 
I don't know if this sounds ridiculous or not, but I was thinking of that scraping class a lot of people here did. That was a great idea.

I would love to try and teach someone CNC if they were actually here in my shop. That would obviously mean that whoever wants to learn would have to fly here to salt lake city, spend money on hotel rooms and such, but they could spend a week in my shop and learn about cnc's or whatever..

It would be a major investment, but I think it would be worth it. Kind of a crash course all in a weeks time..

I know I couldn't take the time or money to fly somewhere to learn, but some people might be able to..

just a thought....

brent
 
here is some insight from a non-machinest, appraiser, machinery dealer and mfg consultant. I see small shops that have a set of manual machines and a set of cnc machines. More often than not the manual machines are gethering dust and the cnc are taking even the odd jobs. Easier to use controls and lower purchase prices will only excellerate this. I know several one man shops that run several cnc s that would had required 10 men a few years ago running manual machines. A while back I almost set up a prototype shop with all manual machines when I thought I had two clients that would had kept me busy, I came to my senses, and realised that I would be doing everything the hard way and be producing substandard work. Both clients went under BTW, only taking about 14k of my dough with them. CNC is the future and present, don't kid yourself with sentimental bullcrap from old timers.
 
I don't know if you've thought of this, but some employers take a dim view of their employees becoming competitors. You might think your boss is a "nice guy" until the day he begins to think you might be taking work away from him.

May not be a problem for you, but something to keep in mind. It happened to me. Me and three others that worked at the same company decided to start our own business. "Part time, to start with", we told ourselves. Once the owner got wind of it, and that we were serious about it, we started to be treated as "outsiders", and soon were out of jobs. Didn't really matter, since we soon had more work than we could handle.

Paula
 
Rockfish,

Is it your intention to quit your current job and only work for yourself or do the garage shop in addition to your current job?
 
"I would guess that the poultry industry in just NW Arkansas spends 200K/month or more on outside machining."

Do they machine the outside to get the feathers off?
 
Just a few thoughts.

1. Search around the American Machinist site for their "benchmarks". I've seen it at one time recently. Lots of useful data from their detailed survey of shops. This will give you some numbers to start thinking about on your own business. Treat them as rough estimates and use them only when you don't know better.

2. You definitely need to learn some CNC. Find a community college or even take some courses via the Internet. I agree a CNC'd knee mill is the ideal starting point. Look at what some business from our members have done along these lines. One of my favorites is Anvil's business selling tooling for bike frame builders:

http://www.anvilbikes.com/

He said in a post he made well over $1 million worth of parts on his first Tree 325. I think those machines will be much cheaper than say a used Haas and much more familiar to a manual machinist.

3. Profit margins are really slim for job shops. You'll see that in the bechmarks I mentioned in #1. You'll have to work a lot of hours to scratch out what you need. If you can think of a product to sell, margins can go up, and there's potential for efficiency if you're making the same thing. Whatever your interests may be, someone would probably like to buy something for that interest they can't today, and you could build it.

4. Bootstrap carefully. You've got a job today. Do this in your off time. If the hours needed to do both get to killing you, you may not want your own business.

5. BTW, you said you work for an outfit that builds machines. Maybe you should build your machine. There seem to be a lot of guys making money having built CNC plasma tables or router tables. Also saw I guy who'd build a big CNC wood lathe. He was turning out big columns for buildings from glued-together wood. Try to find an area where you've got something a little different to offer.

Best,

BW
 
Rockfish, is it your intention to quit your current job and only work for yourself or do the garage shop in addition to your current job?
From the third paragraph of Rockfish's first post:

"I don't plan on quitting my day job, only supplement my income."
 
You mention that "the bills need to be paid" and that what has motivated you to consider starting a business is that your day job is threatened. Both of these issues can cause you to lose your home business...if Fate would decides to deal you a bad hand. The simple fact is that the vast majority of small businesses will fail..and they fail within five years.

There is some very good advice being given in this discussion but I have yet to see the basic issue mentioned...are you and your family ready to commit to this effort...for the long term?

From your comments, it sounds like your family will need to understand that your time will be committed to further your education, look for a more stable job and possibly a home business startup. Anyway you cut it, it means that you will have less free time for them and yourself. Is your family ready to make this commitment? The sooner you have a buy in on this from them, the better with whatever route you take.

The time you spend in the shop will not be spent with the wife and kids. I have seen many businesses derailed because of family problems especially divorce. Currently 60% of marriages end in divorce and any home business will end if one occurs. If your wife will not or cannot commit to your investment in time and money for your personal business, your time is better spent looking for a better job in a better location and getting further education.

Not knowing your personal family situation, I will just say that starting your own business is signing up for another full time job...while you are working the current one you have now. Are you up to working 80 hour weeks for YEARS just to establish yourself in the business and while reinvesting the profits back into the business? Those profits will not be available to "pay the bills" for years. Will your family understand this basic fact of business? Most will not and your relationship and business will suffer for it.

Having a father willing to bankroll you can be a blessing or a curse. For him to be willing to do so is admirable (give him a hug)...most would not or could not. The downside of this is that it may strain family relations...sometimes the old parent-child relationship reappears which was not the best in the past. Also your siblings may not approve of good old Dad bankrolling you and will cause trouble. I have also seen one case where the parents were divorced and the funding the son received was required to be returned...causing the shop to be liquidated.

From your discussions, I would strongly recommend taking classes to upgrade your skills starting TODAY...it sounds like you realize that if the current job goes under that you are not marketable. To me that is the biggest threat that you are facing. Yeah, I know it will take time and money but you have little choice.

The other issue is NOW is the time to reduce and eliminate any unnecessary expenses...the time to make hay is when the sun is shining. From your discussion it sounds like that you will have future demands on your income and time so now is the time to sell the toys we all have, cut the unneeded bills and say goodbye to those people in your life that take up your spare time. We all have hobbies, friends and senseless purchases that drain time and money from our budgets. The sooner they are dealt with, the better. My approach is that if the money spent or time committed does not result in a positive payback, it does not happen.

Another good thing to do now is to cut up all but one credit card while you still have a job. They are a terrible trap to slip into with obsence interest rates and if you need credit, now is the time to line up a line of credit at a sensible interest rate. DO NOT use a home equity loan which will use your home as collateral...it is one thing to have a business failure but quite another to lose the roof over your head because of it.

My comments are not to discourage you from starting a home business but to make sure you realize that there is more to it than just having a few machines, CNC or not, sitting in the garage. They represent an expenditure...a quick fix...and expenditures do not automatically generate profit. The fact that you are still employed and the current situation has alerted you to the vunerability of your situation are very positive points...most people will wait for the pink slip before waking up to the fact that they were in danger.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out,

TMT
 
"I don't know if you've thought of this, but some employers take a dim view of their employees becoming competitors. You might think your boss is a "nice guy" until the day he begins to think you might be taking work away from him.

May not be a problem for you, but something to keep in mind. It happened to me. Me and three others that worked at the same company decided to start our own business. "Part time, to start with", we told ourselves. Once the owner got wind of it, and that we were serious about it, we started to be treated as "outsiders", and soon were out of jobs. Didn't really matter, since we soon had more work than we could handle.

Paula "

Paula has made an EXCELLENT point...the day you are viewed as competition you will be history.

No boss wants anyone who takes money that he has not given them.

Couple that with other employees undercutting you at work because of jealousy and you are guaranteed a rocky work environment for your current job.

TMT
 
Believe it or not, I once had my boss tell me that if I were to buy a machine and put in my garage, he would prefer to send me work than pay me to be an employee. It's just the way they feel. They firmly believe that it is FAR cheaper to farm work out than to keep an employee busy.
They have at least two other machinists that have home businesses and they don't seem to mind at all........but they aren't farming work out to them either. Still, I would not be considered competition, because the company I work for does not do job shop type work. We only make parts for the machines we design and build. They won't even try to get job shop work, even when they are slow.


rockfish
 
I really appreciate all of the advice that has been given here. There are a lot of smart, thoughtful members in this forum and I'm glad to be a part of it.

I have decided that I will go ahead and get a few machines and try to find a little work. Eventually, I will try to upgrade to a CNC, probably starting out with a Prototrak mill and a Trak lathe. Believe it or not, I do have a little experience with an older Prototrak mill and I have had no problem at all programming it to do bolt hole patterns and simple milling functions. I realize that there is absolutely no way you can compete with a Prototrak with a manual mill. It's just not going to happen.

Still, I firmly believe that I can find a niche market for the manual machines that I can afford at this time. My uncle has been in business for over 20 years and has had a steady diet of work, sometimes more than he can handle, and he has nothing but old Warner & Swasey turret lathes, engine lathes, a worn out old Brown and Sharpe screw machine and a nice Warner @ Swasey AB Chucker. He doesn't have much invested in his equipment and has made a lot of money over the years with it. That doesn't necessarily mean that's the right thing to do, and it certainly doesn't mean that I will be lucky and pull off the same thing.......but it's at least worth a try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

As far as family support. My wife and I have virtually no social life, so she and I will probably work together out in the garage. She would have no problem helping, and isn't afraid to get a little dirty. My youngest daughter is in high school and is oblivious to anyone but her friends and the other two kids are grown up and moved away.


rockfish
 








 
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