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The first and last Haas I'll ever buy

You have to hand it to them, Haas knows how to get the word out.
Their video content is top notch and they make the process as easy as possible.

I'd never buy one, but I can see why others do.
They sure can polish a turd.....................I won't buy another Haas. But if I ever did, it would be a simple 3 axis mill or 2 axis lathe...............seems like the only 2 machines they can't screw up.
 
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At my last job we acquired a brand new TS-2. Right off the bat I discovered the chuck that came on it had a smaller bore than the spindle, so our distributor loaned me a boring bar big enough to correct that problem. The excess vibration alarm that shuts down the machine could be triggered by just running the spindle with a small piece of material clamped in the chuck. The encoders used by Haas are really only good for two tenths (.0002"), which works out to four tenths on diameters. I built some nice gutters to keep the coolant off the floor, though.
 
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If you think Haas is in business due to start ups buying 3 your missing the bigger picture. In wisconsin there are many shops with 50+ haas vmcs and they buy one every couple of months. Multiply that times 50 states and you have a healthy machine flow.
 
Haas stopped being relevant years ago .... kind of like California where they are located. Who moves to Oxnard, California, anymore? Nobody with a brain. In 1975 everybody wanted to move to California, but what made it great back then was ruined by the poor character of the people who moved in subsequently until now it is a bum-ridden shitshow.
 
Haas stopped being relevant years ago .... kind of like California where they are located. Who moves to Oxnard, California, anymore? Nobody with a brain. In 1975 everybody wanted to move to California, but what made it great back then was ruined by the poor character of the people who moved in subsequently until now it is a bum-ridden shitshow.

Forgive me for being blunt, but what a stupid comment.

We are both in agreement that California is a shitshow, but to call it irrelevant is absurd. California is a massive economy all on it's own, and it continues to grow. And I assure you that there are a lot of people moving to other places on the West Coast (like here in Oregon) who would have moved to California instead if they could afford it.

I'm so tired of this culture war making people desperate to shit all over California at any opportunity. It can be an absolute mess and be a place where a massive influx of innovators and disruptors setup shop; those things are not mutually exclusive.
 
Forgive me for being blunt, but what a stupid comment.

We are both in agreement that California is a shitshow, but to call it irrelevant is absurd. California is a massive economy all on it's own, and it continues to grow. And I assure you that there are a lot of people moving to other places on the West Coast (like here in Oregon) who would have moved to California instead if they could afford it.

I'm so tired of this culture war making people desperate to shit all over California at any opportunity. It can be an absolute mess and be a place where a massive influx of innovators and disruptors setup shop; those things are not mutually exclusive.
By "irrelevant" I mean irrelevant for manufacturers or people who want to create a prosperous business.

The headwinds any business owner faces in moving there (can't really imagine that) are:

1. An income tax of up to 12.3% which is also applied to all capital gains (highest in the country)

2. Sales tax of 7.25% (also highest in the country)

3. Workers Comp rate of 1.67% (5th highest in country)

4. Income taxes on married couples with two incomes are boosted, so they pay more together than if they were single

5. Highest electricity, water and fuel costs in the country

7. Daily overtime rules that require time and a half pay for work over 8 hours in a day.

8. Local movable property taxes (yes, some cities in CA actually will inspect and put an annual tax on every piece of capital equipment in your shop)

9. Rules that let employees go on workmans comp even if they hurt themself by reckless actions or actions that violated company policies

10. Rules that prevent companies from questioning worker comp medical claims and allowing workers to go on workers comp for unverifiable reasons like a "back pain"

11. Rules that force employers to retain employees that are unable to work due to "injury", so an employee can have "back pain", go home, do nothing and get paid medical insurance at $15,000 per year for the rest of their life PLUS get workmans comp; if you try to fire or let go such an employee California has powerful laws that allow them to sue you and win.

12. Onerous "business licensing" rules that subject companies to elaborate inspections and questioning in order to operate. For example, to get permission to open a restaurant in California can take up to 2 years. Consequently, many people eat out of food trucks in California--which have their own licensing regime.

13. Large and aggressive state inspectors to enforce "wastewater pollution" rules, "air pollution" rules, protection of "endangered plants" rules, and workplace rules that involve constant inspections, information reporting and obstruct changes to company premises or creation of new sites.

14. Constant intrusive inspections, petty licensing and questioning of businesses to enforce "recycling" rules. For example, any company that uses or handles lubricants is required to get a "hazardous waste permit"

15. The California "Consumer Rights" and California Environmental Quality Act law that allows anyone, especially independent lawyers to sue companies for breaking state regulations. There are a class of lawyers in California that specialize in finding companies breaking any kind of state regulation (water, recycling, air pollution, killing endangered plants, etc) and then suing them in a "class action". Unions often file spurious CEQA lawsuits against companies to coerce them to unionize or submit to favorable union-related rules or accept higher wage agreements.

16. Extremely strict ADA laws that require luxurious handicapped ramps everywhere and other expensive facilities, and allow independent, private lawyers to sue companies for even minor infractions of ADA rules, like having too few "handicapped parking" spaces, for example.

17. "Workplace Environment" laws that allow private individuals to sue companies for having a "hostile work environment". So, if one of your employees bullies another employee, then a private lawyer who has no connection to either one of them can sue YOU, the business owner, because in California it's the business owner's responsibility to make sure employees are nice to each other and have pleasant, inoffensive personalities.

18. Defective infrastructure and lack of basic civic support. Because of the hostile environment in California basic civic infrastructure is often lacking. For example, garbage collection businesses are difficult to operate in California, so many places have no reliable garbage collection. Businesses that can afford it have to pay high rates to get it collected. In many places garbage just piles up in the streets until the town makes a large one-off payment to a remote company that comes in and sweeps the streets once or twice a year. Sewer overflows and backups are common.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By comparison, I moved to New Hampshire (from Taxachusetts) four years ago and I have literally NEVER seen an inspector ever. I fill out only one form per year: a US Federal Income Tax form. The only inspection of any kind I have to endure are once per year vehicle inspections of my various cars and trucks. There is no sales tax and no capital gains tax or any other kind of tax, except property taxes.
 
By "irrelevant" I mean irrelevant for manufacturers or people who want to create a prosperous business.
Then why are there so many profitable and successful businesses running 50 Haas machines?

As a one-man, one-machine shop with a Haas, I'm profitable and successful. I wanted an affordable, compact, 5 axis capable, professional grade machine with a very high spindle speed for small, tight tolerance medical device parts, that I could put in my garage. Haas is the ONLY MTB with an offering that fit the bill. I'm strongly considering picking up a second one.
 
By "irrelevant" I mean irrelevant for manufacturers or people who want to create a prosperous business.

The headwinds any business owner faces in moving there (can't really imagine that) are:

1. An income tax of up to 12.3% which is also applied to all capital gains (highest in the country)

2. Sales tax of 7.25% (also highest in the country)

3. Workers Comp rate of 1.67% (5th highest in country)

4. Income taxes on married couples with two incomes are boosted, so they pay more together than if they were single

5. Highest electricity, water and fuel costs in the country

7. Daily overtime rules that require time and a half pay for work over 8 hours in a day.

8. Local movable property taxes (yes, some cities in CA actually will inspect and put an annual tax on every piece of capital equipment in your shop)

9. Rules that let employees go on workmans comp even if they hurt themself by reckless actions or actions that violated company policies

10. Rules that prevent companies from questioning worker comp medical claims and allowing workers to go on workers comp for unverifiable reasons like a "back pain"

11. Rules that force employers to retain employees that are unable to work due to "injury", so an employee can have "back pain", go home, do nothing and get paid medical insurance at $15,000 per year for the rest of their life PLUS get workmans comp; if you try to fire or let go such an employee California has powerful laws that allow them to sue you and win.

12. Onerous "business licensing" rules that subject companies to elaborate inspections and questioning in order to operate. For example, to get permission to open a restaurant in California can take up to 2 years. Consequently, many people eat out of food trucks in California--which have their own licensing regime.

13. Large and aggressive state inspectors to enforce "wastewater pollution" rules, "air pollution" rules, protection of "endangered plants" rules, and workplace rules that involve constant inspections, information reporting and obstruct changes to company premises or creation of new sites.

14. Constant intrusive inspections, petty licensing and questioning of businesses to enforce "recycling" rules. For example, any company that uses or handles lubricants is required to get a "hazardous waste permit"

15. The California "Consumer Rights" and California Environmental Quality Act law that allows anyone, especially independent lawyers to sue companies for breaking state regulations. There are a class of lawyers in California that specialize in finding companies breaking any kind of state regulation (water, recycling, air pollution, killing endangered plants, etc) and then suing them in a "class action". Unions often file spurious CEQA lawsuits against companies to coerce them to unionize or submit to favorable union-related rules or accept higher wage agreements.

16. Extremely strict ADA laws that require luxurious handicapped ramps everywhere and other expensive facilities, and allow independent, private lawyers to sue companies for even minor infractions of ADA rules, like having too few "handicapped parking" spaces, for example.

17. "Workplace Environment" laws that allow private individuals to sue companies for having a "hostile work environment". So, if one of your employees bullies another employee, then a private lawyer who has no connection to either one of them can sue YOU, the business owner, because in California it's the business owner's responsibility to make sure employees are nice to each other and have pleasant, inoffensive personalities.

18. Defective infrastructure and lack of basic civic support. Because of the hostile environment in California basic civic infrastructure is often lacking. For example, garbage collection businesses are difficult to operate in California, so many places have no reliable garbage collection. Businesses that can afford it have to pay high rates to get it collected. In many places garbage just piles up in the streets until the town makes a large one-off payment to a remote company that comes in and sweeps the streets once or twice a year. Sewer overflows and backups are common.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By comparison, I moved to New Hampshire (from Taxachusetts) four years ago and I have literally NEVER seen an inspector ever. I fill out only one form per year: a US Federal Income Tax form. The only inspection of any kind I have to endure are once per year vehicle inspections of my various cars and trucks. There is no sales tax and no capital gains tax or any other kind of tax, except property taxes.

To plainly state the obvious- Not paying for those taxes and fees does not mean you make more money than you would if you did.

California is not one big homogenous lump. There are areas that are extremely affluent. There are areas that are very poor.

California businesses aren't suffering under the burden of all the things you listed above. They can afford it. If they can't, they leave and there's plenty of others who fill their places.

West Coast cities are progressive places. They are not stagnant. Many businesses created on the West Coast succeed because there's an infrastructure that supports it- Highly skilled tech employees, secondary support businesses for tech companies you won't find anywhere else, just people with vast wealth looking to invest it.

I am not a Haas fan, but I find your comparison ridiculous just like others do.
 
By comparison, I moved to New Hampshire (from Taxachusetts) four years ago and I have literally NEVER seen an inspector ever. I fill out only one form per year: a US Federal Income Tax form. The only inspection of any kind I have to endure are once per year vehicle inspections of my various cars and trucks. There is no sales tax and no capital gains tax or any other kind of tax, except property taxes.

Ha ha ha ha ha...It's all just a libertarian utopia until the bears show up. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-poli...mpshire-libertarians-matthew-hongoltz-hetling
 
I guess it is to be expected that people living in California would defend their decision to remain there.

You can get acclimated to anything I guess. It's like boiling a frog.
 
Large manufacturers are abandoning California for more business-friendly states like Texas and Nevada. CEO's and Boards don't make those decisions on a whim, they're trying to do what is best for their shareholders and employees.

When a revolutionary company like Tesla leaves, that should tell California something...

There is a huge aerospace industry in southern California that drives a lot of the manufacturing there. The exorbitant costs of aerospace business in California is hidden by the sheer magnitude of the costs in aerospace manufacturing in general.

When you dig a little deeper, a big part of the aerospace business in SoCal is created by defense contractors---soaking Joe Taxpayer for all Congress will let them.

One of these days the Pentagon will have to make the big boys get their pencils sharper on the contracts...and then it's bye-bye Cali. Take away the defense big boys and their checkbooks, and SoCal becomes a modern-day rust belt.

Haas will leave before it's all said-and-done. It would suit their mission and corporate philosophy to operate in a cheaper place---offering maximum value to the customer. (Haas does employ a lot of immigrants, so moving may not save them a whole lot in labor costs...)

Immigration (both legal and illegal) is the only reason California's population is not decreasing.

ToolCat
 
There is a huge aerospace industry in southern California that drives a lot of the manufacturing there. The exorbitant costs of aerospace business in California is hidden by the sheer magnitude of the costs in aerospace manufacturing in general.

When you dig a little deeper, a big part of the aerospace business in SoCal is created by defense contractors---soaking Joe Taxpayer for all Congress will let them.

One of these days the Pentagon will have to make the big boys get their pencils sharper on the contracts...and then it's bye-bye Cali. Take away the defense big boys and their checkbooks, and SoCal becomes a modern-day rust belt.


ToolCat

If losing the aerospace industry was going to shut down California, it would have happened decades ago. That market is a only a small fraction of what it used to be.

No doubt that California is hard on businesses, but again, their economy is growing like crazy despite it. There is a ton of opportunity there right now in manufacturing. I have several friends and colleagues that have recently decided to make the move to LA. And the machine tool market (especially in NorCal) is absolutely exploding.

Sure, some companies will leave for cheaper places to do business. But those same companies might just leave the US entirely to save a few bucks. They start up in California, because despite itself; many parts of the state have become hubs of innovation.
 
LOL tesla / space x as some beacon of manufacturing. the stories I could tell..

Some times people open their mouths and ensure nothing they say should be taken seriously

California is full, stay out
 
Large manufacturers are abandoning California for more business-friendly states like Texas and Nevada. CEO's and Boards don't make those decisions on a whim, they're trying to do what is best for their shareholders and employees.

When a revolutionary company like Tesla leaves, that should tell California something...

There is a huge aerospace industry in southern California that drives a lot of the manufacturing there. The exorbitant costs of aerospace business in California is hidden by the sheer magnitude of the costs in aerospace manufacturing in general.

When you dig a little deeper, a big part of the aerospace business in SoCal is created by defense contractors---soaking Joe Taxpayer for all Congress will let them.

One of these days the Pentagon will have to make the big boys get their pencils sharper on the contracts...and then it's bye-bye Cali. Take away the defense big boys and their checkbooks, and SoCal becomes a modern-day rust belt.

Haas will leave before it's all said-and-done. It would suit their mission and corporate philosophy to operate in a cheaper place---offering maximum value to the customer. (Haas does employ a lot of immigrants, so moving may not save them a whole lot in labor costs...)

Immigration (both legal and illegal) is the only reason California's population is not decreasing.

ToolCat
Case in point; Haas is moving their main manufacturing to Las Vegas, and only keeping their Oxnard plant for limited production and photo ops.

More to the point, I run a shop with four older Haas CNC mills (2 vf 4s one fv2 and a vf8)

All of them have their quirks given their age. But that damned vf2 seems like it was built on a Friday afternoon. Nothing but problems with that darn thing. Also, it seems to rust up a lot faster than the other machines of the same vintage. It's like they cut corners right down to the actual steel used to make them.

That being said I could take or leave them. As I take over the shop, I'm definitely going to be moving to diversify our machines.
 
CEO's and Boards don't make those decisions on a whim, they're trying to do what is best for their shareholders and employees.

ToolCat
As a rule those two things are mutually exclusive, what's best for shareholders is normally what's worst for employees. Why do you think companies offshore?
"More business friendly" is normally code for being able to treat your employees poorly without censure.
 
As a rule those two things are mutually exclusive, what's best for shareholders is normally what's worst for employees. Why do you think companies offshore?
"More business friendly" is normally code for being able to treat your employees poorly without censure.
Funny how a lot of that work is coming back since offshoreing often resulted in crappy parts and stolen intellectual property. My shop recently won a few repeat jobs back from a Taiwanese manufacturer, not because we were the cheapest but because the client realized that they couldn't deal with the loss of production from dealing with incredibly sub par parts.
 
Funny how a lot of that work is coming back since offshoreing often resulted in crappy parts and stolen intellectual property. My shop recently won a few repeat jobs back from a Taiwanese manufacturer, not because we were the cheapest but because the client realized that they couldn't deal with the loss of production from dealing with incredibly sub par parts.
Years ago I used to make parts for a company, there was about 200 different parts per assembly, all on the small side, tolerances around +/- 0.01mm, a mix of aluminium alloys, titanium and aluminium bronze, turned milled and ground, some had to be normalised/stress relieved between ops, there was about 60 different jigs and fixtures for doing all the parts.
The company was doing very well and came on the radar of some bigger companies, one of which they sold out to. Big company installs a gun MBA who decides he can get all these parts made in china for 1/10 of the cost. their first batch came back and couldn't be assembled so they rock up at my shop and ask if I can fix them...
I tell them they can't be fixed but I can make them a new batch, this dance carries on for around nine months until they close down due to all the fines they were getting for missing deadlines.
 
Yeah, I fixed a few of the Taiwanese parts, and also did some last minute modifications to said parts(for a massive rush fee) for the client just to show that we were all cool.

About a year later, they switched out their purchasing department and the new group wants nothing to do with any other shop besides us. We've been slammed with work ever since.
 








 
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