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The Haas that would not work---revisited $700,000 engine block project---Maybe not the Haas?

Just a tech question, why would the trunnion need to be shimmed, this was a 5 axis machine with a center of rotation in space somewhere, doesn't that get handled by software and parameters, mrzp?
It's in the installation manual. The shims are optional.


The machine base starts with eleven leveling feet to get the base flat to the world. Once that's established, the rotary is leveled from the X rails up.

MRZP works if the rotary axes are parallel and square. If the base rotary axis isn't perfectly square to the machine, all calculations after that go out the window.
 
I'm telling you that no matter how cheap you might be able to solve the problem, there are reasons that machine exists, whether you like it or hate it. When you're told Haas is what's for dinner and you can go hungry if you don't like it, you get the job done with what you have. That machine isn't nearly as bad as some of you make it out to be.

So Haas exists because Big Business structures are so chlorotic and there is so little ownership of everything amongst the staff that there is a market for Worse Than Used Used Quality Machines, But New!
 
In this case, I suspect they were attaching a trunnion to the top of what would have otherwise been the 4th axis table. Just like we might shim a fixture attached to a table--yeah--I guess that seems 'normal.' I see it as an accessory attached to the machine. Some here see it as part of the machine.

If shims offend people here, don't look at how big aircraft wings are attached and how they deal with production stack-up.


Yeah, good point. I expected to find the remainder of the t-slot table from the EC-1600 in there. It looks like the entire table was replaced with a different casting, lacking the 'table' portion. That makes two new parts they had to engineer: the trunnion base and the upper trunnion.

So if they attach the 'tombstone' mentioned in the video, presumably the block would swing into the unused X areas on either side. Or they could reinstall the freaking rotary they paid for and attach things to that. To make themselves feel better, they can call it a tombstone and not 'rotate' it.
awful comparison, aircraft wings dont have to withstand cutting forces and absorb vibrations.
 
I've said this before and I'll say it again: you guys don't understand how big corporations work. That's not a slam. It's just that you don't have the perspective of the giants that make what seem like stupid decisions. There are reasons that all these killer, giganto machines are out there with nobody to buy them.

If there were some kickass half-million dollar machine parked on the street with a 'for sale' sign and $25K on it, big corporations aren't nimble enough to find that money and buy it. If you're your own business, you understand the difference between Capital Asset purchases and expendables. This is a US tax thing for anyone reading from elsewhere.

Big corporations plan their budgets years in advance. ALL Capital Asset purchases (over $5K) are racked and stacked in dozens of meetings. Even if your purchase makes it to the front, they don't meter out the money until well into the calendar year. When you get the green light, you move forward and hope you can fill the order before the end of that year. Come New Years day, it all starts over and you may lose your place in line. That starts the process all over: you made it through last year without that whiz-bang new mill, do you still need it?

No matter how outstanding a deal you may have found for a machine, nobody is going to move that purchase to the front of the line in this entire calendar year. So the seller would have to be willing to warehouse that machine for more than a year (probably 18 months) in the hopes that maybe you could get the funding next year. No deposit allowed. No contract. Nothing.

The people authorizing those purchases also have probably never bought as much as a used car. It's beneath them and they don't understand people who buy used things. They aren't going to be the one who bought some ten year old, very lightly used machine, no matter how much it makes sense. They just aren't.

If something went wrong and Yasfanucenhein doesn't make that part anymore, it would come out that they tried to cut corners and now the company is stuck with this "piece of junk" and it's going to take two years to scrap it and recover. It's also going to cause irreparable harm to the program it was purchased for. The capital asset budget wasn't their money in the first place and there is no reward for saving it. There's a certain amount earmarked to spend this year and they're going to buy the lowest risk item with that money (new, not used).

We had a 1990ish Bridgeport VMC that had been "traded in" as part of a new Haas purchase. Another company site had the sister machine (both were bought at the same time but separated during department reorganizations). They desperately needed it for spares to keep the remaining one running. Haas didn't really want it. The 'trade in' was a courtesy to make the old machine go away and for the company to not have to move it around and auction it for scrap.

The trade value was $5K. The salesman said if we wanted to keep it, he could sell it back, in place, for $4,995, tax included. It had to be under that price or the money became a Capital Asset tax-wise and it had to come from the other money sources.

So now it's in the discretionary budget region, Haas doesn't want it, we do want it, it's been discounted and there wasn't a manager in the place who would authorize $5K to make it happen. Seems easy enough, right? Any of you business owners would have pulled out your money clip, peeled off the cash and not thought another thing about it. That's not how big corporations work.

It was literally one day before the HFO had to send riggers to pick up the Bridgeport. I invited myself into the site vice president's office and told him the story. He looked at me like I was making it up. It wasn't possible that nobody under him would have taken care of such a small issue.

He called a director at the other site to verify what I told him. She told him over the phone, "Yeah, we just don't have the five grand to do it." He told her he'd take care of it and hung up the phone shaking his head. He thanked me. Are we done? Hell no.

The internal transportation people were lazy. They had tractor trailer rigs that went to the other site multiple times a month, as well as a 10-ton stakebed that would easily move it if there really wasn't any room on the regular truck. They refused to move the machine. Instead, they contracted the move to an external trucking company. To justify it, they treated the shipment as if the driver were going with the single load and showed how the contract truck was 'cheaper'. They got rewarded for such thinking because neither side really knew what was going on. The truck never went empty but, that's now how they tracked things.

Problem is: the cost of the $4,995 transaction had to include all the costs (for tax purposes). That meant the trucking now got added to the purchase and it's suddenly an unscheduled Cap Asset. That got forcibly extracted from that VP's butt, long after the fact. He had to answer for why he bought-back a 20 year old, non-functioning machine. Never mind that when it arrived to its new home, it was actually repaired and put to work. Never mind that I had numerous voice mails thanking me for doing the legwork. No, I was now the person who cost the company an unscheduled cap asset purchase for what they considered to be a pile of scrap metal.

And now you have some insight into why there are no buyers for all those giant, slick machines and why they're virtually free in the used market. The scraps falling off of big corporations like this is what feeds all the smaller businesses around them.

Edit to add: when a big corporation has to justify a big horizontal, they're going to shop a number of solutions. There will be considerations on there that wouldn't occur to many of you and you'd say "that's stupid!". Yeah, maybe for you but, they have to comply with certain laws and regulations that you're free to ignore. Like it or not, Haas checks all those boxes. Having smaller Haas machines greases the way to get bigger Haas machines. Buying a 'non-standard' machine is heavily frowned upon.
why are we talking about big corporations here? what does that have to do with the topic of this post, Steve Morris' shop and machine? i'm so confused...
 
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Just a tech question, why would the trunnion need to be shimmed, this was a 5 axis machine with a center of rotation in space somewhere, doesn't that get handled by software and parameters, mrzp?
MRZP is only meant to compensate for TINY misalignments - primarily from heat expansion. if your trunion is physically out by several thou, you'll never make good parts.
all the SERIOUS MTB's dont shim important parts like kinematic components - those are scraped in. shims work fine to get you to square - but take away from rigidity because instead of contacting on the entire face, you're now only touching in several spots.
scraping is more expensive, thats why haas doesnt do it - they're a commodity builder. and this is one of the MANY reasons why their machines perform drastically worse than machines that are built with FUNCTION in mind first, not bottom line.
 
why are we talking about big corporations here? what does that have to do with the topic of this post, Steve Morris' shop and machine? i'm so confused...
Because there's all this talk about what a PoS a Haas is and why would somebody buy one? Why doesn't everyone buy used Makinosuragildemeister Seikis when they're so much mo bettah?
 
Because there's all this talk about what a PoS a Haas is and why would somebody buy one? Why doesn't everyone buy used Makinosuragildemeister Seikis when they're so much mo bettah?
i may be wrong, but the gentleman that was talking about makinos, was referring to Steve morris, not EVERYONE.
and your summary about corporations is pretty wrong. i'm at a 300+ employee company, we purchased our ~1.5m zimmerman in a matter of like 2 weeks where it got approved from me submitting in the PO request. not all companies are alike, so using a blanket statement like you did is way off base.
 
MRZP is only meant to compensate for TINY misalignments - primarily from heat expansion. if your trunion is physically out by several thou, you'll never make good parts.
I could be mistaken but, I think MRZP is for measuring parallel misalignments in the axes. If the two axes of the rotary on a machine don't intersect, the CAM software needs to know by how much. Again, I don't have first hand experience but, if the axes are both offset and not 90 degrees apart, that introduces errors that MRZP can't solve.

It would be like X and Y not being 90 degrees to one-another. There's no amount of probing and measuring that's going to correct that unless the CAM software has a means for non-rectilinear motions.
 
i'm at a 300+ employee company, we purchased our ~1.5m zimmerman in a matter of like 2 weeks where it got approved from me submitting in the PO request. not all companies are alike, so using a blanket statement like you did is way off base.
To me, 300 people is a mid-sized company. That's the company that does buy machinery. Those are the companies that do the work for the big companies.
 
It is interesting to see the Hass bashing here.
To all with chips in their shoes choose.
A 10-20 year old Hass or a original K&T smaller Milwaukee-Matic (tool changer up top) or a 2 (tool changer on side)?
Have owned both. The 2nd big iron for sure. A brute of a machine in it's day.
Shall I also assume FADALs are also junk machines?
I will take the weenie POS Hass.
Everyone has a opinion but you know the saying about that.
You can buy top end machines. Likely there is a good reason for the bigger price tag.
So an extra $300-$500 large. Does that money buy any employee floor time?
Each shop will be different and it is all ROI.
Maybe much of I love this machine tool comes from people who do not write the checks and balance the books.
 
It is interesting to see the Hass bashing here.
To all with chips in their shoes choose.
A 10-20 year old Hass or a original K&T smaller Milwaukee-Matic (tool changer up top) or a 2 (tool changer on side)?
Have owned both. The 2nd big iron for sure. A brute of a machine in it's day.
Shall I also assume FADALs are also junk machines?
I will take the weenie POS Hass.
Everyone has a opinion but you know the saying about that.
You can buy top end machines. Likely there is a good reason for the bigger price tag.
So an extra $300-$500 large. Does that money buy any employee floor time?
Each shop will be different and it is all ROI.
Maybe much of I love this machine tool comes from people who do not write the checks and balance the books.

Bob, what kind of travesty would it take for you to say "Boy, Haas sure has screwed some people over".

Does Haas need a defense here? Do they deserve one?

They built this big POS EC1600 5 axis thing. They sold it to this guy to machine billet engine blocks. It didn't do very well, granted there is debate as to what problems the buyer's inexperience had. That has some to do with it for sure, but that's part of my point- Many, many Haas buyers don't know what their options are. They are blissfully ignorant of the trap Haas has set for the beginner- Haas makes a mediocre VMC and have been brilliant at marketing it. I bet Mr. Donkey has a big Haas tattoo across his chest and a I heart Gene tattoo on his arm. There are lots of guys like him that know Haas VMC's and absolutely nothing else whatsoever. They'll tell you Haas is amazing and a great value. That's fine.

I think things are not fine and there really is an issue when Haas puts out some real certified dogshit and these guys who've somehow never even seen a Makino in person are defending the value of that dogshit.

Now go back and watch that video with the covers off that thing. Have you ever seen even a little 300mm HMC with the sheetmetal off? I sure have. And an HMC looks absolutely nothing whatsoever like what Haas sold this poor guy. That machine is a travesty.
 
The insane attention to detail and mechanical problem solving that's required to build the highest standard of racing engines wouldn't seem likely to look at a Haas and say "Yep, that looks good".
I think it's just a totally different mindset. You have to consider that they have no frame of reference for what a machine "should" look like, perform like, etc...

I know a guy who is one of the premier race engine builders in the world. Super smart. Obvious practical engineering skills. He bought a UMC1000 thinking it was a rocketship. Didn't really understand the shortcomings until he (his employees) actually tried to make chips on the POS.

Another thing that happens is that once one of them buys a machine they all want to buy that machine. There are some very respected folks in the automotive aftermarket who are still schilling aerospace billet products that they produce on their "Made in USA" HAAS machines. I watched one shop struggle to build a new product on UMC #1 as the owner was literally at an auction to place a bid on UMC #2.

The cult of personality is very, very, strong.
 
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I didn't see anybody else point out that also, automotive people like Gene Haas.

He races NASCAR, he races F1, and he has spent some time in federal prison. Fits right in with the automotive aftermarket crowd. :D
What's wrong with the automotive aftermarket crowd?
 
I bet Mr. Donkey has a big Haas tattoo across his chest and a I heart Gene tattoo on his arm.
:LOL: You got me! The I heart Gene thing on my arm is a branding though. They wouldn't let me into the secret club without burning flesh.

There are lots of guys like him that know Haas VMC's and absolutely nothing else whatsoever.
Ehh, that's a stretch. I haven't missed a Westec in 24 years and one IMTS under my belt. DMG and Mazak are on my radar for a 5-axis and Brother if I ever needed something small. You and Empower seem to think DMG and Mazak are trash too. Can't win with you guys.

It would be easy to dismiss me if I were brand-ignorant. If anything I'm retail price ignorant and that's squarely on the sales strategy of the other MTBs. Same reason I've never bought a new car and never will: I don't like the pricing model.

...Haas puts out some real certified dogshit and these guys who've somehow never even seen a Makino in person are defending the value of that dogshit.
I produced my own picture of a Makino, from the Westec floor 15 years ago and you think I don't know anything? I have a pretty big demo part sitting here that came out of a Makino horizontal the year before. Want to see it?

If someone is spending half a million dollars on something, it's on them to take a plane ride and go look at it, whether that's at IMTS, Oxnard, Chicago or any of the other reseller showrooms around the country.

And while we're at it: it sure looked pretty darned rural where they were installing this UMC-1600. Did anyone think that maybe they only have 220 split-phase or 208 3-phase at best? Maybe a 50 HP horizontal that demands 480 wasn't even an option.
 
And while we're at it: it sure looked pretty darned rural where they were installing this UMC-1600. Did anyone think that maybe they only have 220 split-phase or 208 3-phase at best? Maybe a 50 HP horizontal that demands 480 wasn't even an option.

Yes it is an option. Fanuc spindle drives are user configurable to match the power available. They come from the factory set to full kill mode, but they do have a vicious kitten mode that works great for us "rural folk" if you crack the manual. I didn't know that when I was looking at the A77 I mentioned, but I don't regret not buying it. I have the right machines for my needs now.

I also have several 480V machines that I run from 240V. At one time I had a 30HP DC spindle Mazak that was 480V only. I ran it from a 240V 3 phase just fine with a transformer. 30HP is a power hungry mf'r. 100 amps continuous at 80% spindle load. I melted a lot of electrical components getting my RPC and shop wiring to supply that for 45 minutes at a time churning out billet converter shells.

I can agree that a small spindle can be an asset. But I do think it's kind of a stretch to apply that to a machine purchased to machine solid chunks of aluminum into an engine block. You really do need HP here. Moreso, you need rigidity.
 
And your experience on shipping 1000-2000 engine blocks a a day is what?
Play in this field?
why does it have to be experience shipping 1-2000 engine blocks a day? why cant personal experience with MULTIPLE horrible haas machines be relevant here? this is just so absurd to me...
 








 
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