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The Haas that would not work---revisited $700,000 engine block project---Maybe not the Haas?

It's sort of been limited to their goofball models. I don't see the dislike for the VF2 and 3 type simple verticals that their goofball machines bring. A Timex keeps on ticken' but it ain't no Patek Phillipe.

bingo, their VF line is pretty good (been hearing QC issues on their newest ones from the past 2 years or so, but other than that, they serve a good purpose)

Ya blew that one, buddy :) K&T used to rebuild/recontrol the Ea and Eb's .... for anything that fits a hori, I'd take one of those in a heartbeat. I'd choose a 200 or 600 or 1015 over any haas ever built. The machines are 100 times better, the controls are 1000 times better. Also better than any worthless effing jap shit ever created, either. If they put the D into modern electronic components it'd kick ass to this day. Those controls are a joy to run.


Ask Vanc :D To be fair tho, both haas and fred andy dave and larry were built to a price point. They allow people with less money to get into the game. They serve an honest purpose, it's not fair to compare them to the high-priced spread.

It's just that haas should maybe stick to what they are good at instead of making stuff that doesn't cut the mustard.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^DING DING DING DING^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You can have it, I'll whup yer butt with my D control 600. It'll be like Lester Hayes playing Pop Warner :D


Okay, okay, that's true .... but the haas company really should not build this weirdo junk that just makes them look bad. It's like Yugo trying to build a luxury car, yes ? PREACH

One good point you made : I can't believe all these dipshits wanting to make engine blocks but none of them hire a GM or Ford guy to give advice ? wtf, over ? If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I'm going to ask someone who knows what they are doing first. Jeeze.

replies above in bold
 
If I were on a tour of the Steve Morris business and asked my personal opinion, I'd want to see what machines they have and take inventory:
  • How many are capable of making parts (Haas, etc)?
  • What machines are dedicated to single-op engine processes (Rottler, Sunnen, etc)?
  • What is the monthly demand on each with their other products and services?
From there, I would decide what processes need to go on the UMC-1600 and what's better suited to other machines?
  • If they already have a machine dedicated to line boring caps and cam bores, then there's no need for the post-heattreat block to go in the UMC for that.
  • If they have a Rottler they use for precision decking of blocks, same answer. I'd leave 0.020-0.040 on the decks and finish them after heat treat.
  • If they do precision bore finishing on a Sunnen with a special blend of herbs and spices in the oil, great, not doing it in the Haas.
The UMC would be dedicated to completing as much work as possible before heat treat and then hopefully the block never comes back to that station again. Never mind accuracy of the machine, the refixturing would be a huge PITA.

Blocks are many hours of cycle time. If they work out a conservative but, reliable process and tool management, it could run on its own. It could run overnight. It could always be printing money instead of chasing tolerances that don't need to be achieved there in the first place.
 
If I were on a tour of the Steve Morris business and asked my personal opinion, I'd want to see what machines they have and take inventory:
  • How many are capable of making parts (Haas, etc)?
  • What machines are dedicated to single-op engine processes (Rottler, Sunnen, etc)?
  • What is the monthly demand on each with their other products and services?
From there, I would decide what processes need to go on the UMC-1600 and what's better suited to other machines?
  • If they already have a machine dedicated to line boring caps and cam bores, then there's no need for the post-heattreat block to go in the UMC for that.
  • If they have a Rottler they use for precision decking of blocks, same answer. I'd leave 0.020-0.040 on the decks and finish them after heat treat.
  • If they do precision bore finishing on a Sunnen with a special blend of herbs and spices in the oil, great, not doing it in the Haas.
The UMC would be dedicated to completing as much work as possible before heat treat and then hopefully the block never comes back to that station again. Never mind accuracy of the machine, the refixturing would be a huge PITA.

Blocks are many hours of cycle time. If they work out a conservative but, reliable process and tool management, it could run on its own. It could run overnight. It could always be printing money instead of chasing tolerances that don't need to be achieved there in the first place.

Why can't they just get rid of the Haas?

They can probably sell it for what they owe on it.

Take the side of the building out again. This is not a big deal. Happens all the time. It takes me 4 hours by myself.

Buy the closest under 25 year old 500-600MM Japanese HMC with 10K+ spindle they can find. Lets call it $30k sitting in the shop with rigging. This is like net from two engines for them.

Spend a week cleaning it up and getting familiar with scary Fanuc or Pro3.

Then make some blocks knowing any problems aren't with the machine.

Enjoy positive cash flow.

Make videos about products they make, not about the machine.
 
Why can't they just get rid of the Haas?
Your solution would work too. Maybe they want to keep it all Haas because that's what the programmer / machinist knows? I don't know their labor challenges.

Me? By the time I have a guy doing all the programming, maybe I don't have the bandwidth to learn a completely new control. I'm busy running the rest of the business. Now my guy decides he's moving 500 miles to be near his family and my production grinds to a halt because I barely know how to push the Do button.
 
Anyone care to comment on how difficult it is to go from Haas to a different control that works exactly the same, except some buttons are now soft keys?
 
Again Mr Rasberry-Pi-and-coffee-maker-parts, you are not the average bear. :D

I didn't build the raspberry pi controller. Just my idea. My friend built it for me.

Yesterday, I drove an excavator, skidsteer, forklift, dirtbike and my truck. Drastically different controls on each one of those, but tons of people can run all those no problem.

Cnc controls are all pretty similar.
 
Cnc controls are all pretty similar.

It's not that I'm personally worried at all about learning a new control. The problem will be how do I train or find talent who knows how to run that control in the future? I can keep the spindle running for a few weeks while I struggle to find someone. I either have to find that person with experience or I need to be ready to train them.

For the cost of three days of that person's labor, I can take a Fanuc guy, send them to free mill training at Haas and I don't lift a finger. To motivate them, I can point out that all the big employers around here are running Haas. Everything they invest in themselves is portable and useful for their next job. Giving an employee reasons why they want to learn something is important. I think we can agree that portable and marketable skills are desirable to have. To the best of my knowledge, I couldn't take a Haas guy and send him to free Fanuc anything. I could be mistaken and eagerly await you correcting me.

Here's a discussion about the skills problem right now:

I bought Mastercam when it was still the DOS version (9.0) and was on maintenance until X was released. Did I somehow believe it was the best? Or a bargain for the price? I picked it because I knew I could find people who had skills using it.

I suspect the Steve Morris guys are in the same situation, same choices, same challenges, same opportunities.
 
Your solution would work too. Maybe they want to keep it all Haas because that's what the programmer / machinist knows? I don't know their labor challenges.

Me? By the time I have a guy doing all the programming, maybe I don't have the bandwidth to learn a completely new control. I'm busy running the rest of the business. Now my guy decides he's moving 500 miles to be near his family and my production grinds to a halt because I barely know how to push the Do button.
part of the reason he got it is that Tom Bailey is his best friend, so i imagine he's helping him out by taking it off his hands, i hope he doesnt sorely regret it.
 
Anyone care to comment on how difficult it is to go from Haas to a different control that works exactly the same, except some buttons are now soft keys?
well, this week i taught one of my engineer coworkers how to program a 5 axis part in NX, as well as run it on the zimmerman because i'll be off on vacation all of december so he will be able to run a few parts here and there if needed while i'm gone.

before this he's only programmed 3 axis in fusion, and run our VF4. granted i've built out some pretty bitchin templates to where its pretty easy to do this stuff, but still quite impressive.
 
Hurr, hurr, hurr, Haas sucks, buy something better.

Apparently not very happy with his Mazak. Upset with the construction, the sales people, the design, the 5-axis motion.

 
Hurr, hurr, hurr, Haas sucks, buy something better.

Apparently not very happy with his Mazak. Upset with the construction, the sales people, the design, the 5-axis motion.


A shitty Mazak doesn't make Haas any less shitty.

Nice try though!

Trying to be a bit less of a dickhead for a moment, if that was in this country I'd say "well duh". There's are reasons why Mazak are on my do not buy list as well - that is more related to support than machine quality, but Mazak's machine quality absolutely is overrated too.

I have a few points to make about this particular video:
  • This guy seems quite inexperienced.
  • He clearly did not do his due diligence before he bought it.
  • He is using Fusion with his own post and is complaining about jerky motion.
  • He is using long solid body ER holders for small tools and stressing about tool weight instead of using lower mass holders.
  • He states he is using the machine irregularly and his shop is not temperature controlled, and he is complaining about holding tolerances.
  • He spent the first half of the video talking about how exemplary Mazak's service has been, and then spends the second half of the video talking about how Mazak washed their hands of the machine and sent him a cease and desist letter.
I don't want to slate the guy too much because I can absolutely believe the machine is junky, but this is a very one sided story with a lot of big red flags.
 
Reading some of these posts I'm amazed that people struggling with controllers know to drop their trousers before taking a dump. How fucking difficult is it to learn a new controller. Tool offsets, workpiece coordinates. The fucking buttons have pictures on them and some even have words. Anyone doing complicated work uses CAM not finger CAM. No wonder manufacturing is fucked it's the last refuge of the incompetent idiot. I'm way past my use by date according to the new crowd but I can buy a 6 axis lathe and teach myself how to run it without a single days training.
 
Reading some of these posts I'm amazed that people struggling with controllers know to drop their trousers before taking a dump. How fucking difficult is it to learn a new controller. Tool offsets, workpiece coordinates. The fucking buttons have pictures on them and some even have words. Anyone doing complicated work uses CAM not finger CAM. No wonder manufacturing is fucked it's the last refuge of the incompetent idiot. I'm way past my use by date according to the new crowd but I can buy a 6 axis lathe and teach myself how to run it without a single days training.
"last refuge of the incompetent idiot"---likely many endeavors beyond machining can lay claim to that.
The reality is the overwhelming majority of people making stuff never get heard from---too busy making chips and money and have been very successful at doing it for a very long time.
Except for me.
 
So was the other one tho. A lot of these start out waa waaa waa but after the first ten minutes you can see why these people had such a bad experience. So now we have one dumbass haas customer and one dumbass mazak customer ... who's gonna be next ? :D
There is not a machine builder out there who somebody somewhere has not had a bad experience with.

Part of the due dilligence of buying a new machine is hearing the opinions of people who already own it, and part of that is deciding which opinions are worth listening to.
 
Hurr, hurr, hurr, Haas sucks, buy something better.

Apparently not very happy with his Mazak. Upset with the construction, the sales people, the design, the 5-axis motion.

your point? just because there are other crappy machines/companies - does not mean criticism of haas is invalid.
mazak entry level machines are just a tiny step up from haas anyway.
 
Trying to be a bit less of a dickhead for a moment, if that was in this country I'd say "well duh". There's are reasons why Mazak are on my do not buy list as well - that is more related to support than machine quality, but Mazak's machine quality absolutely is overrated too.

Maybe try being more introspective for a moment...

It's enlightening to see under the covers.

I really don't care what the Haas fanboys say about it, that is a joke of a machine, good luck to anyone trying to make parts on one.

What a piece of shit.
Where's all the pitchforks and torches wanting to hunt down the predatory sales people? Where's all the indignation about Mazak parading out a "piece of shit", slapping their name on it and selling it to unsuspecting buyers? Where's all that bitching about inferior construction, made of parts from other machines?

Yeah, yeah, failings on the part of the buyer / owner. I said that and got called a Gene Haas fanboy. Buying the wrong machine for the job can happen with any brand. Poor or incompetent sales and service can happen with any brand. Machines made out of parts from other machines happens with any brand. I'm propping up the mirror for some to reflect on
 
Maybe try being more introspective for a moment...


Where's all the pitchforks and torches wanting to hunt down the predatory sales people? Where's all the indignation about Mazak parading out a "piece of shit", slapping their name on it and selling it to unsuspecting buyers? Where's all that bitching about inferior construction, made of parts from other machines?

Yeah, yeah, failings on the part of the buyer / owner. I said that and got called a Gene Haas fanboy. Buying the wrong machine for the job can happen with any brand. Poor or incompetent sales and service can happen with any brand. Machines made out of parts from other machines happens with any brand. I'm propping up the mirror for some to reflect on

False equivalence.

I don't like the Mazak, but it's nowhere near such a massive pile of shit as that Haas.

Why so indignant anyway? Is this thread bad for your stock portfolio?
 








 
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