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The Haas that would not work---revisited $700,000 engine block project---Maybe not the Haas?

Maybe try being more introspective for a moment...


Where's all the pitchforks and torches wanting to hunt down the predatory sales people? Where's all the indignation about Mazak parading out a "piece of shit", slapping their name on it and selling it to unsuspecting buyers? Where's all that bitching about inferior construction, made of parts from other machines?

Yeah, yeah, failings on the part of the buyer / owner. I said that and got called a Gene Haas fanboy. Buying the wrong machine for the job can happen with any brand. Poor or incompetent sales and service can happen with any brand. Machines made out of parts from other machines happens with any brand. I'm propping up the mirror for some to reflect on


How many Mazak cock gobblers are defending them here?
 
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How many Mazak cock gobblers are defending them here?
I haven't seen a single comment about the decline of a once-proud brand, or what awful sales people misled this poor buyer.

I wanted to see how impartial the criticism is around here. I knew the answer. The science was needing to test it. :D
 
I haven't seen a single comment about the decline of a once-proud brand, or what awful sales people misled this poor buyer.

I wanted to see how impartial the criticism is around here. I knew the answer. The science was needing to test it. :D

1- Nobody is loudly defending Mazak against all logic. Mazak has always made some sucky shit and some niche good stuff. They have never been top-tier and nobody seems to be making claims they are better than they are?

2- The "Haas bashers" come out to provide balance when the Haas cock cobblers start getting out of control. Do you ever take a step back and read how blatantly biased most of your posts are about Haas? You respond to everything here. My god you must spend days of every hour on this forum. Posts that have no reference to Haas whatsoever regularly get responses from yourself that read as if the ONLY machine tool builder is Haas and the ONLY machine that could do the job is a Haas.

It's like some folks here believe that 90% of the world's machinework is done on Haas machines and the only sensible solution to every problem is Haas. I have never seen anyone make statements anything close to that about Mazak. Start a Mazak specific thread here and you'll get lots of opinions that Mazak is pretty good at some things, but can kinda suck at stuff because they make 1000 different types of machines. You'll have guys chime in they have 50 Mazaks and love them and some guys saying they hate their Integrex with a passion.

Nobody is going to say Mazak walks on water and everyone should buy a Mazak for every problem.

Yet somehow a handful of people on this site continually push their opinion that Haas is the perfect machine for everyone, only an idiot would choose anything but a Haas and Haas is Murica!

Come on! Haas comprises a small fraction of worldwide machine tools. All the machines Haas makes are entry level. Haas has overstated machine capability as standard since their beginning. Haas is a brilliant marketing company and a so-so MTB.
 
2- The "Haas bashers" come out to provide balance when the Haas cock cobblers start getting out of control. Do you ever take a step back and read how blatantly biased most of your posts are about Haas?
When they get painted as nothing but useless crap, yeah, I chime in. IDGAF about the brand name on the machine, as long as I get results and it's easy to live with. The brand hasn't been bad at all for me or plenty of other owners.

It's painted around here like Haas regularly under-delivers, the sales people suck and the whole experience is a loser. When the same is pointed out about another brand it becomes, "Whoa, I never said it didn't happen to other brands!" Okay, then post that machinery sales is just like car sales and people need to do their homework. Don't represent it like it's unique to one brand.

You respond to everything here. My god you must spend days of every hour on this forum.
I've got multiple monitors and browser windows open. I don't own a TV. I'm working in Solidworks on one screen, video streaming on the other and--yeah--I refresh these pages often. If I'm sitting down, it's usually at a computer.

Posts that have no reference to Haas whatsoever regularly get responses from yourself that read as if the ONLY machine tool builder is Haas and the ONLY machine that could do the job is a Haas.
I recommend Haas when it's someone starting out from nothing, for many good reasons I've beaten a hundred times. Because of these discussions, I've finally started to watch videos about other controls. Yeah, I could learn them. So far, not impressed (at all) by any of the other interfaces. I'd go so far as to say disappointed in how half-assed and unfinished they seem. I expected better for how highly regarded they are.
 
A shitty Mazak doesn't make Haas any less shitty.

Nice try though!

Trying to be a bit less of a dickhead for a moment, if that was in this country I'd say "well duh". There's are reasons why Mazak are on my do not buy list as well - that is more related to support than machine quality, but Mazak's machine quality absolutely is overrated too.

I have a few points to make about this particular video:
  • This guy seems quite inexperienced.
  • He clearly did not do his due diligence before he bought it.
  • He is using Fusion with his own post and is complaining about jerky motion.
  • He is using long solid body ER holders for small tools and stressing about tool weight instead of using lower mass holders.
  • He states he is using the machine irregularly and his shop is not temperature controlled, and he is complaining about holding tolerances.
  • He spent the first half of the video talking about how exemplary Mazak's service has been, and then spends the second half of the video talking about how Mazak washed their hands of the machine and sent him a cease and desist letter.
I don't want to slate the guy too much because I can absolutely believe the machine is junky, but this is a very one sided story with a lot of big red flags.
just watched the video and wanted to note: jerky motion doesnt HAVE to be bad code, certainly can be, but can also be the settings in the machine - aka lookahead settings etc. i've certainly had similar issues with haas.

that said, the guy is certainly a rookie, no doubt about it.
but i've heard plenty bad things about the VC500/5ax before.
 
When they get painted as nothing but useless crap, yeah, I chime in. IDGAF about the brand name on the machine, as long as I get results and it's easy to live with. The brand hasn't been bad at all for me or plenty of other owners.
you should really try to work on some other machines to see just how much better things can be than 'not bad'
 
So far, not impressed (at all) by any of the other interfaces. I'd go so far as to say disappointed in how half-assed and unfinished they seem. I expected better for how highly regarded they are.

I can't really fathom how you could figure out if you like or don't like a CNC GUI from watching Youtube.
 
you should really try to work on some other machines to see just how much better things can be than 'not bad'
I'm not in a position to hop to another machine, as one might when changing jobs. I'm self-employed and on my own. You guys are my virtual coworkers in the big interwebz cube farm. Aside from encounters I have with colleagues and seeing what they run in their shops, It's trade shows, videos and posts here.

I can't really fathom how you could figure out if you like or don't like a CNC GUI from watching Youtube.


Or videos like this:


Or visiting other shops like I did last Friday (Cincinnati Milacron / Siemens and Bridgeport Centroid). Always watching, always asking questions, always learning. Nothing yet made me say "Oh, that's sweet! I wish mine did that."

If I need MDI to do anything the Haas does with a button, it's a sorry excuse for a control. Here's some that randomly come to mind:
  • If I need a calculator to set a tool or work offset
  • If I am using the factory supplied probing and need to know a program number and supplied arguments for basic work and tool offset setting
  • If I want to turn the spindle on at a specified RPM and need to type the command
  • If I want to turret forward or back and need to type the command
  • Ditto for coolant or a bunch of other things
  • If it clears the MDI register after executing the program
  • If all the parameters and settings were supplied by the MTB in a book that was lost long ago and nobody knows WTF they are.
 
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I've never had a cnc lathe that didn't have absurdly basic turret indexing controls. That's standard AFAIK on any machine and Haas doesn't even make a real cnc lathe.

I use a very basic tool setting method and have never used a calculator and only have one machine with a probe. There are lots of ways to do it. You make it as complex as you want.

I call mill tools and control the spindle with mdi. I don't follow how a control is junk if you need to do that? Haas doesn't read your fucking mind. It works the same way, just different buttons. Mdi register clearing is a parameter. If you lost the parameter manual for your Fanuc machine you can buy a used copy from hundreds on Ebay for $20 or so. Or just call Fanuc and ask them for free.
 
I call mill tools and control the spindle with mdi. I don't follow how a control is junk if you need to do that?
Maybe I'm doing things in MDI and don't want to clear the program just to spin an edge finder, or change to an empty pocket where I can load an indicator?

Haas: 250 and press FWD and the spindle is running at that RPM. Press Stop and it stops. T4 and Turret Forward and it goes to tool 4. Turn the machine off and it's off. I don't have to kill the breaker every time to power it down. I can add and subtract from the offset values. Touch off the height of a 123 block? I can subtract out the 1" by going to that field and typing -1.0 and pressing Write/Enter.

Living with Haas day-to-day is easy. Fanuc after 1995 or so has no excuse for sucking.

Mdi register clearing is a parameter.
Yes, I would imagine it is. It never dawned on me that any of them would treat that as a volatile space. It makes me wonder which controls don't give that choice.

If you lost the parameter manual for your Fanuc machine you can buy a used copy from hundreds on Ebay for $20 or so. Or just call Fanuc and ask them for free.
For the Parameters on the random japanese machine you snagged at an auction? The tool changer position parameters, servo tuning, max travel values and all of that? Yeah, maybe I can reverse engineer it. That turns something simple into a project from hell. It's nice that Fanuc put their control on so many machines. It sucks that without MTB support, every one may as well be custom.
 
Maybe I'm doing things in MDI and don't want to clear the program just to spin an edge finder, or change to an empty pocket where I can load an indicator?

Haas: 250 and press FWD and the spindle is running at that RPM. Press Stop and it stops. T4 and Turret Forward and it goes to tool 4. Turn the machine off and it's off. I don't have to kill the breaker every time to power it down. I can add and subtract from the offset values. Touch off the height of a 123 block? I can subtract out the 1" by going to that field and typing -1.0 and pressing Write/Enter.

Living with Haas day-to-day is easy. Fanuc after 1995 or so has no excuse for sucking.


Yes, I would imagine it is. It never dawned on me that any of them would treat that as a volatile space. It makes me wonder which controls don't give that choice.


For the Parameters on the random japanese machine you snagged at an auction? The tool changer position parameters, servo tuning, max travel values and all of that? Yeah, maybe I can reverse engineer it. That turns something simple into a project from hell. It's nice that Fanuc put their control on so many machines. It sucks that without MTB support, every one may as well be custom.

Yep. Fanuc sucks. You have to type S250 before pressing fwd to start the spindle at 250. Got me there!

Fanuc has lots of shortcut keys for searching programs, adding and subtracting offsets and switching programs. Some things can be a bit weird, like loading programs takes more steps on the newer Fanucs than other controls, but whatever, it's a couple extra keys to load a new program. 10 minutes a year maybe?

The machine parameter list is an MTB thing. Many MTB's are helpful and can provide, some are long gone. 90% of machines come with a paper printout or a disc with all the specific parameters and settings. On all Fanucs you can set the 3 comm parameters, hook it to a computer and read in all the standard parameters from a PC. Back to 1978. If I buy a machine missing these documents I punch them out to a PC and save to a thumb drive. If an old orphan machine is missing parameters I'm unlikely to buy it, but they can be recreated. If the machine is missing the wiring diagrams I'm not interested.

I didn't get any books or paperwork with the used Haas's I've bought. I guess Haas folk have grown to depend on Mother Haas for these things so they don't keep the books safe. I'm trying to recall a single Japanese machine I've bought that did not come with the books. Most people keep them safe and pass them on with the machine. I bought a 20 ton Mori-Seiki VMC that was missing the operator manual and Mori wanted $200 for a new copy of it which I declined because they were happy to answer a couple questions I had about navigating the tool register. Other than that I've never bought a machine devoid of documentation. My $600 Kitamura I bought in a gravel parking lot in the rain came with all the books and maintenance records back to new. The higher end builders have some pretty rad books too. My Makino has a stack of books 14" tall. I shit you not! You could build an entire new machine from the information in the books. I like books and manuals. I'd be pretty let down if I bought a machine and all I got was a generic user manual online.

The Fanuc parameter manuals are the overall user manual that tells you what every parameter does and what all the options are so you can make changes if you want. Haas doesn't have such a thing.
 
I didn't get any books or paperwork with the used Haas's I've bought. I guess Haas folk have grown to depend on Mother Haas for these things so they don't keep the books safe. I'm trying to recall a single Japanese machine I've bought that did not come with the books. Most people keep them safe and pass them on with the machine.
That was a very thorough response and while you haven't sold me, it did explain some of the differences. On this point, I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not. New Haas machines ship with a user / operator manual and that's it. Floppy era machines came with a printout of all the parameters and settings in the back of that book, plus a floppy inside the cabinet door. When USB came along, the parameters were on a USB in the back cabinet.

There are no schematics or part drawings provided, nor are they available to my knowledge. I'd love to have even a block wiring diagram of where everything generally goes electrically but, I haven't been able to find any such thing. I do have the service manuals from their website but, those mostly deal with mechanical systems, alignment and service of sub-assemblies, etc.

It's anyone's guess which connectors go from the MoCon board to the 4th axis connectors for example. Each wire bundle has a band marker but, say I wanted to add a hydraulic chuck to my TL-1: I can't find out where the hydro pump takes power, or where the reversing valve connects to the machine (unless I buy factory-supplied harnesses).
 
Yep. Fanuc sucks. You have to type S250 before pressing fwd to start the spindle at 250. Got me there!

Fanuc has lots of shortcut keys for searching programs, adding and subtracting offsets and switching programs. Some things can be a bit weird, like loading programs takes more steps on the newer Fanucs than other controls, but whatever, it's a couple extra keys to load a new program. 10 minutes a year maybe?

The machine parameter list is an MTB thing. Many MTB's are helpful and can provide, some are long gone. 90% of machines come with a paper printout or a disc with all the specific parameters and settings. On all Fanucs you can set the 3 comm parameters, hook it to a computer and read in all the standard parameters from a PC. Back to 1978. If I buy a machine missing these documents I punch them out to a PC and save to a thumb drive. If an old orphan machine is missing parameters I'm unlikely to buy it, but they can be recreated. If the machine is missing the wiring diagrams I'm not interested.

I didn't get any books or paperwork with the used Haas's I've bought. I guess Haas folk have grown to depend on Mother Haas for these things so they don't keep the books safe. I'm trying to recall a single Japanese machine I've bought that did not come with the books. Most people keep them safe and pass them on with the machine. I bought a 20 ton Mori-Seiki VMC that was missing the operator manual and Mori wanted $200 for a new copy of it which I declined because they were happy to answer a couple questions I had about navigating the tool register. Other than that I've never bought a machine devoid of documentation. My $600 Kitamura I bought in a gravel parking lot in the rain came with all the books and maintenance records back to new. The higher end builders have some pretty rad books too. My Makino has a stack of books 14" tall. I shit you not! You could build an entire new machine from the information in the books. I like books and manuals. I'd be pretty let down if I bought a machine and all I got was a generic user manual online.

The Fanuc parameter manuals are the overall user manual that tells you what every parameter does and what all the options are so you can make changes if you want. Haas doesn't have such a thing.
I don't think the Haas machines are designed to last as long as the Fanuc based machines. By the time you need all the manuals the machine would be mechanically stuffed anyway.

In 40 years on Fanuc based CNC's I have personally never needed to restore parameters. I've had to call in a tech to do it on the Haas a few years back and I've had to do it on a brand new Bridgeport.

I run a 2011 Haas next to a 1995 Kira. The Kira is just better in every way from paint, wiring, hoses and castings. Even the wimpy little 30 taper machines more accurately and the surface finish is better.
 
Fanuc has lots of shortcut keys for searching programs, adding and subtracting offsets and switching programs. Some things can be a bit weird, like loading programs takes more steps on the newer Fanucs than other controls, but whatever, it's a couple extra keys to load a new program. 10 minutes a year maybe?

I would rather load a program on a FANUC where I'm pressing keys for 20 minutes vs loading an NC file on a haas instantly.... if it means the part comes out nominal on the FANUC control lol

I don't give a shit how easy it is to load the program if I'm having to run back and forth to the computer for reposts to fudge true position locations in my cam file.
Glass scales on all 5 axes > a pretty GUI
 
I'm not in a position to hop to another machine, as one might when changing jobs. I'm self-employed and on my own. You guys are my virtual coworkers in the big interwebz cube farm. Aside from encounters I have with colleagues and seeing what they run in their shops, It's trade shows, videos and posts here.




Or videos like this:


Or visiting other shops like I did last Friday (Cincinnati Milacron / Siemens and Bridgeport Centroid). Always watching, always asking questions, always learning. Nothing yet made me say "Oh, that's sweet! I wish mine did that."

If I need MDI to do anything the Haas does with a button, it's a sorry excuse for a control. Here's some that randomly come to mind:
  • If I need a calculator to set a tool or work offset
  • If I am using the factory supplied probing and need to know a program number and supplied arguments for basic work and tool offset setting
  • If I want to turn the spindle on at a specified RPM and need to type the command
  • If I want to turret forward or back and need to type the command
  • Ditto for coolant or a bunch of other things
  • If it clears the MDI register after executing the program
  • If all the parameters and settings were supplied by the MTB in a book that was lost long ago and nobody knows WTF they are.
you've gotta put yourself in those situations! make friends etc :)
 
The video popped up on my YT a few days ago and I was trying to piece together what happened before I found this thread tonight.

Did Tom Bailey or Steve Morris give any real facts about what they were promised in writing for the machine?
Did Haas sell them a turn key guaranteeing they can cantilever a 1500lb block out 4' with 0 measurable sag?


Sure, there are better machines, but I just see car guys who don't have enough experience to be ordering a $700k machine.

Unless I missed something, nothing from any of the videos shows this actually being Haas' fault.
 








 
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