The heresy of cutting oil?

[Joe Gwinn]

Anyhow, one type of oil that got me thinking is
vanishing oil. It is a type of oil used punch pressing
and blanking. It dries clear or evaporates or something.
Basically goes away. I think it is peanut oil, but not
sure. Anyone have thoughts of using it as a coolant
for machinery? ? ?

Whatever vanishing oil is, I bet it isn't peanut oil, because peanut oil likes to turn to varnish.

From one SDS, it seems to be a light hydrocarbon carried in naptha.

 

[chip-load]

Well it is a CNC. It’s not a BP with you standing there cracking handles. In other words, there will be a time, or operation, when you want walk away for a little while. Or you may purposely set up a process in a way to give you some time away from the machine to do paperwork or just leave for a few minutes. With oil . . . don’t even think about it!

 

[DocsMachine]

With oil . . . don’t even think about it!

-Okay, why not? I'm looking for actual reasons, not "I've never seen that done, it's witchcraft!"

Is there some reason that oil is fine while the machine is being watched, but will, I don't know, try to escape or something the moment you're distracted?

Doc.

 

[Buzzshoney]

Screw machines

I don’t see what the problem would be. There was no fire hazard when a lot of todays machining was done on Screw Machines. That’s full flood oil, and it seemed to work great
Buzz

 

[Joe Gwinn]

I don’t see what the problem would be. There was no fire hazard when a lot of todays machining was done on Screw Machines. That’s full flood oil, and it seemed to work great.

The old time machine spindles ran far slower than a modern machining center.

 

[DocsMachine]

The old time machine spindles ran far slower than a modern machining center.

-Very true. But as noted, my primary and probably only use of this machine will be on aluminum.

I certainly won't say ignition is 'impossible', but unless I'm missing something, outside of a very odd set of circumstances, I'd say it's extremely unlikely.

Now, on that note, and relevant to the conversation: I may have need to turn some titanium in my CNC lathe, which is already equipped with cutting oil.

The alloy is irrelevant, it's a trinket part, probably standard 6AL4V or whatever I can get my hands on in rod form.

I know Ti is somewhat more flammable and most other metals, so in an oil-bath situation, is there an additional danger?

AND... is there any reason the oil might not play nice with the Ti? Only issue I can think of would be chlorine, but the Mobilmet is non-chlorinated.

Doc.

 

[Joe Gwinn]

-Very true. But as noted, my primary and probably only use of this machine will be on aluminum.

I certainly won't say ignition is 'impossible', but unless I'm missing something, outside of a very odd set of circumstances, I'd say it's extremely unlikely.

It's rare, but devastating if it happens. Instead of speculating, I'd look into actual accident statistics. Then do the math.

Now, on that note, and relevant to the conversation: I may have need to turn some titanium in my CNC lathe, which is already equipped with cutting oil.

The alloy is irrelevant, it's a trinket part, probably standard 6AL4V or whatever I can get my hands on in rod form.

I know Ti is somewhat more flammable and most other metals, so in an oil-bath situation, is there an additional danger?

It does not matter what the part being made is intended for, frivolous or profound. It only matters what material is being machined. The risk is to the machines and perhaps the machine shop, not the part.

AND... is there any reason the oil might not play nice with the Ti? Only issue I can think of would be chlorine, but the Mobilmet is non-chlorinated.

I'd ask Mobil if Mobilmet is OK with titanium. If titanium is not mentioned in the list of materials machined, I'd assume that titanium is not a good idea until told otherwise by Mobil.

 

[DocsMachine]

It's rare, but devastating if it happens. Instead of speculating, I'd look into actual accident statistics. Then do the math.

-I would be very interested to see those statistics. I can't say I've done an 'exhaustive' search, but I've looked, and have found very few references to using cutting oil in VMC, period, let alone any significant number of accidents thereof.

The risk is to the machines and perhaps the machine shop, not the part.

-Agreed! That is, point in fact, why I'm here asking these questions.

Thing is, while I'm getting some pretty decent feedback, the majority of the 'reasons against' basically boil down to "I wouldn't do it, so therefore it's evil, wrong, anti-American and probably fattening".

If there's a legitimate reason- besides cost- that I shouldn't do it, I won't. But apart from a vague "it's more potentially flammable than water", I don't really see a solid reason not to.

I'd ask Mobil if Mobilmet is OK with titanium. If titanium is not mentioned in the list of materials machined, I'd assume that titanium is not a good idea until told otherwise by Mobil.

-Mobil's ad-blurb states it's good for "a wide range of machining operations" on "all types of metals". The only distinction they mention is to use the lighter 423 and 424 on materials of Brinell 200 and under, and the heavier 426 on metals up to 300.

Titanium generally being about 120. But I'd been considering going with the lighter-viscosity in the VMC, in any case.

Doc.

 

[EPAIII]

Interesting discussion and I am learning a lot. Thanks for that.

What is funny is while I am reading about all the disadvantages of using oil for cutting, the side-bar on my screen is advertising motor oil and hydraulic oil. Those advertising folks are so, so, very smart. And companies are PAYING for those ads.

 

[Bill D]

Years ago I read that Husvarna chain saw company was pushing sunflower oil. I do not remember if it was for bar oil or to be miked with the gasoline or both. Save the forrest from nasty oil fumes was the logic. Make the clear cut ex-forest smell nicer.
Bill D

 

[camscan]

The old time machine spindles ran far slower than a modern machining center.

Some of them run @10,000

 

[Joe Gwinn]

-I would be very interested to see those statistics. I can't say I've done an 'exhaustive' search, but I've looked, and have found very few references to using cutting oil in VMC, period, let alone any significant number of accidents thereof.

We certainly know the mechanism - flammable mists or dusts will catch fire from time to time. As will oil-soaked anything.

I have not done any deep research, but a number of forum members have reported on fires in their shops, or known to them, so I'd start there.

And googling for "machine shop fires" brought lots of hits, like this one, which is selling a fire suppression system for VMCs and the like:

The Case For Supplementary Fire Suppression - Modern Machine Shop

This may be the way to mitigate the risk.

-Agreed! That is, point in fact, why I'm here asking these questions.

Thing is, while I'm getting some pretty decent feedback, the majority of the 'reasons against' basically boil down to "I wouldn't do it, so therefore it's evil, wrong, anti-American and probably fattening".

If there's a legitimate reason- besides cost- that I shouldn't do it, I won't. But apart from a vague "it's more potentially flammable than water", I don't really see a solid reason not to.

Many of those folk were citing direct personal experience. While anecdotal, these stories certainly serve to point out risk scenarios. But it's up to you to do the follow-up research.

-Mobil's ad-blurb states it's good for "a wide range of machining operations" on "all types of metals". The only distinction they mention is to use the lighter 423 and 424 on materials of Brinell 200 and under, and the heavier 426 on metals up to 300.

Titanium generally being about 120. But I'd been considering going with the lighter-viscosity in the VMC, in any case.

Would it not be simpler to just call Mobil's application engineering folk and ask the question directly? This would settle the issue for sure.

 

[DocsMachine]

We certainly know the mechanism - flammable mists or dusts will catch fire from time to time. As will oil-soaked anything.

-As I said, at the moment I'm more concerned with oily waste. Paper towels and rags and the like, as I try to keep the work area semi-clean. I have a steel trash can now, though no lid so I'll probably pick up a new one. No one locally sells the footpedal-lid flammables cans, though any number can order one for me.

And googling for "machine shop fires" brought lots of hits, like this one, which is selling a fire suppression system for VMCs and the like:

-I'd done exactly that before I even asked. Most of the results are basically news articles, however, and unfortunately don't usually state what, exactly caused the fire. (IE, just that X fire department responded to Y location, which happened to be a machine shop, and there was Z amount of damages, etc.)

There's a couple of trade magazine articles about fires that tend to give more info, and in the context of this thread, nothing says "don't use oil", just maybe "use a little more care if you do".

I do plan on adding several more extinguishers- I already have quite a few, both dry-chemical and CO2, as I've always been leery of fires. (And used to do welding and fab in the shop, before I started moving the machines in.)

I've also looked - admittedly only very briefly- at some of the in-machine suppression systems. Anyone have any experience with any of those?

But it's up to you to do the follow-up research.

-Er, this kind of IS my 'follow up research'. Basically I'm asking here for anyone's 'real world' experience. Did you use oil, what kind did you use, what machine did you use it in, were there any hazards or performance issues, etc.

Would it not be simpler to just call Mobil's application engineering folk and ask the question directly?

-Not on the weekend, when I asked the question.

Doc.

 

[Garwood]

The old time machine spindles ran far slower than a modern machining center.

I bought out an entire screw machine shop when I was 20 years old in 2003. One lot of machines was a set of nine Tornos swiss machines that ran Colt 1911 firing pins since they were new in 1917.

They had 9000 RPM spindles.

They had run brazed carbide tools since the late 1930's according to notes with the machines.

 

[mhajicek]

Interesting discussion and I am learning a lot. Thanks for that.

What is funny is while I am reading about all the disadvantages of using oil for cutting, the side-bar on my screen is advertising motor oil and hydraulic oil. Those advertising folks are so, so, very smart. And companies are PAYING for those ads.

Download Brave | Brave Browser

 

[Joe Gwinn]

I bought out an entire screw machine shop when I was 20 years old in 2003. One lot of machines was a set of nine Tornos swiss machines that ran Colt 1911 firing pins since they were new in 1917.

They had 9000 RPM spindles.

They had run brazed carbide tools since the late 1930's according to notes with the machines.

Heh. I guess they got their money's worth on that.

What was the surface feet per minute? Colt firing pins cannot be large. Probably a full flood.

Textile machinery could well run at 10000 rpm before 1900.

 

[gwelo62]

Havent read every post so may be duplicating. As Mr.Heaton said, the specific heat capacity of water is much higher than almost everything else, which is why the sea and you and I dont boil off in the sun. The oil lubes the cutting edge and the water removes the heat.
Strange, considering water is oxygen and hydrogen, both very volatile on their own

 

[CarbideBob]

Havent read every post so may be duplicating. As Mr.Heaton said, the specific heat capacity of water is much higher than almost everything else, which is why the sea and you and I dont boil off in the sun. The oil lubes the cutting edge and the water removes the heat.
Strange, considering water is oxygen and hydrogen, both very volatile on their own

Yes but oil provides lubrication at the chip sliding interface on top of the tool that water alone can not.
Where does one need to control the heat and it's generation?

Strange indeed is that I have seen totally water based machines start on fire more than oil based problems
Once you start that "steel whool" burning it is very hot.
I would take grinding swarf and show new guys. That is a real fire.
Bob

 

[lrak]

Wow what a thread! - just read the whole thing and I'm more puzzled than before - not complaining - but just totally puzzled.

Short version of this thread:

- Water based coolants work well - but - causes rust in hidden cracks, under vise, in bearings or not?' - eats paints - or not - eats electrical insulation - or not - destroys electronics or not( might want to close the cabinet door?)..

- Synthetic coolants work well - but same issues as water based only the rust is replaced by some kind of corrosion - or wear on the machine.

- oil based might stink - or not. (add antibiotics? Lysol concentrate?) Oil with sulfur compounds stains - etc etc etc.. No end of trade offs. Risks to operators, cost of disposal, initial costs. There are to many trade-offs to have any consensus.

I've used water based coolants straight as a rust preventative - works great - but the same coolant diluted can cause rust under vises. Is it the formula or do all water based schmoos do this? ( I think if the schmoo gets in a crack where it won't dry right away, the oil and water separate - and the water then causes rust? ). Someone said no rust with Trim E206 - but is that on parts or on parts stacked up with wet schmoo still on them?

Are the differences in opinion due to marketing or real tests? Do the prices reflect marketing breakthroughs or real clear cut differences? (I doubt any of it is really worth twice a barrel of crude). I see real differences in opinion between high production shops - seems like a lack of independent engineering research - Google scholar isn't helping me - I see some work on nano-particle lubricants in vegetable oils - but nothing that is shining light on a complex topic. Everyone has their own magic special schmoo or is it just really good sales men? (I really don't know - like I said - totally puzzled. ) I suppose most shops that run real tests keep the data 'in-house' so the debate is unavoidable.

I think I will pick up a sample of Trim-E206 and run tests with bare steel stacked up wet, soak wires with 3 types of insulation in them, put a couple of types of paint samples in a jar of it, put some different metal samples in a jar - wait 6 mo and see what happens.

I do think the fluids provides 3 functions (in order of importance?):
1 - Move chips out of the way so they don't get recut.
2 - Cooling.
3 - Lubrication

So best at cooling might not be best at lubrication.
,.,.
Then there is the problem from an older thread - the meaning of 'neat oil' which is not the same as 'neat-foot oil'. NEAT can mean undiluted, or from bovine. I see 'neat oil' described as mineral oil based - but others say vegetable oils) - could be oils that replaced neat-foot-oil from 80 years ago? I would love to know where the term 'neat oil' came from - I know where neat-foot came from.

 

[sfriedberg]

I think "neat oil" is from the "undiluted" sense of "neat". So does not specify mineral or vegetable, only "pure" or "straight".