US Manufacturing - Tooling. The last 50 years.

[Rancher Bill]

One of the minor ironies is that China, and to a lesser extent Taiwan and
Japan don't seem to have any problems making imperial stuff for shipment
to the US, and metric stuff to send to all the rationalists elsewhere.
Just like Ford, GM and Chrysler had no problems (at least ones they were
public about) doing the metric shift 15-20yrs ago.

Please help me. I can't think of one Chinese, Japanese, or Taiwanese product that is Imperial other than sockets, wrenches and Imperial measuring devices.

Everything is metric with these exceptions. They'd make those items in Cubits if there was a market for them.

 

[CharlieBiler]

juergenwt,

I thought this discussion was about tooling and the state of American industry. Some how it degraded into a name calling match. I fully expect someone to drop their trousers and whip out a scale calibrated in both inches and centimeters.

The American federal government is doing its level best to destroy manufacturing in America. If you send some operation over across the salt ponds; you can borrow money, interest free, to make the move. You then can write off the whole thing on your taxes. The IRS is subsidizing the export of our livelihood. Moving to Mexico gets you double rewards.

NAFTA was to be a dropping of trade barriers. Mexico was to open its markets to America (and Canada), stop shooting union members, and stop polluting...sure. Instead we allow a third world dictatorship to export criminals, unwanted local minorities, and poison that passes for food. Mexico is a country rich in minerals, oil and wonderful people. Unfortunately Washington uses my money to prop up a government; that is a lot like a nation that we just used the American army to overthrow. China gets about the same pass from the Most Favored Nation crap. If they will not hold up their end of a treaty; burn the treaty.

Our government rewards laziness. If you lay around and do nothing; you have treasure heaped at your feet in the form of food stamps, welfare, SSI, free daycare, free medical care, free transport, free housing, free education, free heating, free lawyers, free clothing, free recreational drugs, free reproductive assistance, etc. If you try to better yourself by making a product; you are slapped down and taxed to starvation.

A good example is me trying to get some training to sharpen my CNC skills. I have just found out that one of my local public school district trade schools employs teachers that can not program a CNC lathe. I am going to actually be teaching a young fellow how to write G-M code. He is going to this school and he is learning nothing. Fortunately the government is constantly testing them.

In the past I have tried to get some training in AutoCAD. I had to make the jump from AutoCAD four to AutoCAD fourteen by myself. Going from a DOS based system to a Windows based format was a nightmare. The funny thing was none of the pimply faced Engineers I worked with could even use AutoCAD. To them; I was a God of blueprinting. They could not even use a pencil and tee square. That is truly a sad comment on our colleges.

I want to still get some training in Master CAM and I still want to to get a few classes in CNC programming. Feature CAM is just fading away and I have been out of the mainstream long enough to develop poor CNC programming habits. The problem is that most of the local holders of education degrees are dumber than me, if that is possible. Government sponsored teacher's unions are so wonderful. Stepping up the ladder, to college, gets even worse. Just try to go to college and get classes in manufacturing. My alma mater does not even offer classes in CAD or CAM. What they offer is a diploma mill operation that is taught by people that could not feed bar stock into a lathe. But hey...They got one of the best football teams in America.

Government is not the solution to manufacturing's problem. Government is the problem. The export thing makes me puke. Just try to export a product. I double dog dare you to try. Now go buy something from overseas. I just sent ten thousand bucks of my "retirement money" to Japan. I tried for two years to get any American or Canadian company to produce what their catalogs contained. My Japanese parts will soon arrive and some US government bureaucrat will do all the paperwork and make sure there are no glitches. Meanwhile, I have to jump through flaming hoops to ship a lousy cast iron exhaust manifold overseas. Why don't we have a federal agency to help people export products? Please speak up because the sound of chirping crickets is drowning your response. My two US Senators are too busy; investigating a kid's game that is played by millionaire jocks. I am paying for the stadiums, the federal oversight, and all the rest. No congresscritter in Pennsylvania will lift a finger to help a small business export dirty machined thingies overseas.

As for this steaming load of metric versus english measurements; I have my doubts on the experience about someone that would throw that out for argument. Today I drew up seven prints, in AutoCAD. Four of them were done in metric and had no english dimensions on them. I sent these prints out for quoting, after I made the prototypes on an all english manual lathe. One print was done in english and all measurements were in both english and metric. The shop that will do this job will have to press G70 for inch or punch in G71 if they prefer to read the metric dimensions. The last two prints were drawn in english, but the major dimensions were shown in metric, with the english equivalents in the brackets. I am not a machinist but I use whatever system is most convenient for the poor machinist that has to make my parts. I have never met a real machinist that could not rattle off equivalent dimensions in either system. I have a huge cheat sheet next to my desk, and most major machines, because my college educated hat rack sometimes forgets that I have to use a number nineteen drill before I tap a M5-0.8p hole. Anyone that tells me that they use only metric or only english drills is definitely not a machinist. Men use what they have at hand to create what they need.

The main reason we are losing our manufacturing edge is because the tree of liberty needs watering. It will probably fall to my generation to do the deed. Our Illuminati are currently preoccupied; trying to decide which one of three triplets will become President of our republic.

It is well past my bedtime. I have to be at an antique lathe and DOS based CNC mill at five AM. Someone has to pay for all my neighbor's benefits.

 

[Blue Steel]

Please help me. I can't think of one Chinese, Japanese, or Taiwanese product that is Imperial other than sockets, wrenches and Imperial measuring devices.

Everything is metric with these exceptions. They'd make those items in Cubits if there was a market for them.

I think the Japanese have been metric for many years so never bothered much with english units.

Of course they made Imperial Mikes and so on, basically there was a market for them. They don't care what they make as long as there is a customer for it.

We do have a manual Mazak where I work that is all imperial, quarter inch screws on the cross slide and so on. It goes 250 thou for each turn and of course the scales are one thou per division.

Stephen

 

[Norman Atkinson]

50 years on

Stephen,
Just to keep things correct, the Japanese actually used imperial intervals in automobile building.

The A series engine of Morris later BMC was copied in the first lots of 'Japanese' cars.
The A series was old enough- in fact it was aa pre-war sidevalve and then OHV.
Then the B started in taxis and went on to MGB's and C's and petrol and diesel versions.

Not much original thought? We ain't got a home grown car industry anymore for that reason.

Now where did I hear that before?

Cheers

Norm

 

[dznit]

We USA did make a $$$ effort to go Metric (1980's?) There were "metric man" cartoon commercials on standard TV broadcasts, new cars had both MPH & KPH on the speedometers, the speed limits posted both MPH & KPH (@ least in Texas) all at great public (tax) expense! Then the speed limit signs were changed back to MPH (very$$$), the TV commercials were dropped, etc. I had an uncle who sold John Deer tractors, and looked forward to selling to foreign countries which in the past WOULD NOT buy Deer tractors because they were not metric.

Like the transportation fuel $ problem we are in, the United States could solve these problems if we wanted to.

If you want to "Go Metric" as a nation, phase in over ~12 years. Start in kindergarten: teach only metric! That will give 1st grade teachers 2 years to teach only metric, 2nd grade teachers 3 years ... etc. This will give industry ~12 years to convert. If this seems too long, we could have done it twice since 1980. Continue whatever inch/metric is taught currently in each grade level until time for metric only.

 

[Blue Steel]

Thanks Norman

didn't know that story. I was told the original Datsun/Nissan 1600 was in fact a design they got by buying an English company called Prince. The Prince was designed with a DOHC 6 but Nissan used their SOHC 4. I think it was the original incarnation of the L20 which became known as one of the great car engines due to it's sheer stone axe reliability. It was known here as a cockroach of a motor. No matter what you did it wouldn't blow up. The all independent suspension was the English design and it is apparent Nissan's engineers learned a lot from it.

There has in fact been plenty of original and innovative thought from Japan. This ranges from their Bakers who gained their origin from European baking but then took it to a new level. If you are ever in Japan you will be amazed by the range of stuff they sell in their Bakeries. The next day it will be just as huge a range but different.

So far as engineering goes I will have to think about it to give you examples but it is fair to say that their greatest strength is their perfectionism. They insist on doing things a bit better than perfect. I suppose it is their culture. They worship Mt Fuji for it's perfect shape for example.

*VBG* talking about copying our Holden (GM) engines were heavily based on US engines. Our sixes were based on a Chevy design from the 1930's. They kept up with variations of it until the 1990's. Many loved those engines but I could never understand why they never seemed to perform that well although they were reliable. The Holden 253 and 308 cube V8's were based on the Chevy Small Block. Some say they were better engines but in the Street Machine sector you could not go past the romance of the Chevy name! Big hairy chested mans engine you know.

Stephen

 

[Norman Atkinson]

50 years on

Greetings, Stephen!
We are going off topic but 'What the Hell?'
I sort of cut my teeth on British cars and learned on a Morris 8 of 1935 vintage. In the late 50's graduated(?) into Minis, 1100's, Landcrabs and 1800's with the odd(very) Spitfire thrown in as part of my wife's 'dowry' Looking back, they were all 'rust buckets' and we lost our way with inferior workmanship(back on topic) Today, we really only have Nissan and the quality coming out of nearby Washington is incredible. I did a City and Guilds using Nissan's stuff at the local college.

It does take me back to reply to the anti Spanish lobby here. I bought a house in Spain over 30 years ago and using hire cars proved ridiculous and I bought a very secondhand Seat 127 which was the Spanish version of the Fiat 127- with the fabulous 903cc engine.
So, I am doing rather nicely with few complaints because I bought my place for the price of a Volvo and it is rather increased in value. Moving on, I bought a new Seat Marbella for washers and it lasted 9 years and my pool manager still runs it. Those who carp about Spain have piddling small brains! 6 years ago, I did the 'Italian Job' with my better half and the Merc saved our lives. The rest that day got a ride in hearse! So we got a new couple of Mercs but agreed that the little loyal 'Panda' was not as strong as newer cars and we bought a High and Dry 'Getz' for a few more washers. No street cred. but aircon, air bags, and built like a brick sh1t house. The other UK car is me returning to my second childhood- or maybe third- and I bought a new Mini. Another Cooper, fast with paint removing quarz halogens and more bells and whistles and enough space to carry a bari saxophone.
End of boy racer and enter girl racer, complete with shopping and saxophones.
Now all this does bring in new levels of safety and fuel economies which these lot on the other side of the pond have got to discover. My missus with a bloody big Merc full of swag does 50 mpg and can top my Merc SLK at over 146mph. The plot is that we can howl down a German autobahn at will- and not need a bank manager to get a loan for fuel!
The Krauts, all credit to them, and the Japs have shown that 'it could be done'

Finishing my epistle(or rant), there is bugger all that we can teach the world. Somehow, I think that blethering on like a bunch of incontinent fish wives does suggest that our cousins haven't much of a clue either.

Good Day

Norm

 

[Blue Steel]

to get this back on topic we need a BT 50 that we can mount a light car in!

I did have a few Fiats. a 124 series 3 an original 124 with the 1200cc OHV engine that later was turned into the twin cam and a 131 that had a 1600 version of the twin cam motor.

Great great engine but the gearbox was too small and the diff too. The bodies rusted. It was almost a great car instead it was one you could love with your heart but your brain would struggle with it.

I am driving a Mazda 3 now which I am sure is the most fun of any car I have had, good safety and economy. It's one failing is that it doesn't have a great big boot like a 500 SLK. Ah well you get that

Stephen

 

[Norman Atkinson]

The last 50 years

I'd forgotten the Fiat Croma and the 131TC and so on. Been around a long time, you see.
One set of spanners in Whitworth, another in AF's, another in SAE and another in Metric.
So what? What's the gripe from people who are Latter Day Luddites?
I don't know what is happening down under in Oz but each, or so the press says, is in debt to £30,000. Let's leave the conversion into coins of the realm but it buys a top range Merc here. Geyser on the other side of the pond with 5000 in dollars. Question is he bragging or complaining? At this point, Stephen, 160.000 punters have had there credit cards withdrawn. One firm- Egg- but it means that it affects 60,000 assuming 4 per card or family. That's 1/10th of the UK population in real terms. Then Northern Rock which is/was a biggy went arse over tit having lent to another set who can't afford to buy property.
OK, fella, but this is not engineering. A nice cosy chat about number drills versus metric ones. This is going to rocket not just around this little overcrowded island but there will be queues around soup kitchens in the US as well as the UK. I don't know how many of the population have suffered from sheer abject poverty but one thing is certain- no one is going to hear the 'petty problems of funny sizes' when the noise of empty bellies is heard.

Well, it seems a pity that the stories of poor people coming through Ellis Island are ignored.
Perhaps, I have said too much.

Keep well

Norm