VMC Purchase Input (sub $100k budget)

[mmurray70]

It would be great if you think you want to pursue work that needs that envelope. If you aren’t looking to do that type work then you end up with a bulkier, slower machine. Bigger parts need more infrastructure. Forklift, floor space or other storage area, hoist or crane maybe. If that’s the direction you want your operation to go then it’s appropriate. Otherwise it’s a poor choice.

Not even talking about heavy forklift kinda parts... but you still get lots of big circles to cut out of plate, or some kind of aluminum panel or electronics mounting plate thats just little too big in X or Y. Long skinny parts that are over 30", etc etc.

Talking from experience here. At least half or work is prototype work and you never know what will show up. We see the limits of our 40x20 all the time, even on parts that are less then 10 lbs. Honestly a 60x30 would be even better for this type of work, but size/cost/hassle goes through the roof with that lol.

Doing plate work on the table is pretty much a requirement for first machine too. If thats an issue with a brother it would make me think twice for the first machine.

 

[Finegrain]

Doing plate work on the table is pretty much a requirement for first machine too.

Why? OP says, "90% fit in a 6" vise". Personally, I haven't done anything on the table in my 30-taper since new 7 years ago.

 

[mmurray70]

Why? OP says, "90% fit in a 6" vise". Personally, I haven't done anything on the table in my 30-taper since new 7 years ago.

Thats great if thats the type of work your into...

The origional poster said his primary customers are doing prototype work. Prototype work is all over the place. He said his tormach was been very limited. Right off the bat hes looking at 40 taper 30x16 machines (wise decision). And I simply suggested that if he has the space to consider a 40x20 as well. Its definitely nice to at least have the option to cut plates on the table efficiently if you need too.

 

[triumph406]

Why get a a 4020? among other things you can get 4-5 vises on the table, so potentially you could have 4-5 different setups on the same table.

imho I think a 4020 with 28in Z is the absolute miniumum you should have. I'd get a 6030 if I thought I had more than a few years left to go.

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I have a Fadal 4020, I have parts where I have to take the doors off and run shower curtains, and that was after cutting away some of the enclosure to clear parts that have had both end covers off.
I guess if I had a 6030 I'd be bidding on parts that would probably be hanging off the table.

 

[mhajicek]

Why get a a 4020? among other things you can get 4-5 vises on the table, so potentially you could have 4-5 different setups on the same table.

imho I think a 4020 with 28in Z is the absolute miniumum you should have. I'd get a 6030 if I thought I had more than a few years left to go.

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I have a Fadal 4020, I have parts where I have to take the doors off and run shower curtains, and that was after cutting away some of the enclosure to clear parts that have had both end covers off.
I guess if I had a 6030 I'd be bidding on parts that would probably be hanging off the table.

More space to hold parts is great, but you should also put some thought into how much space your workholding is wasting, and how you can optimize it for your needs. I'm fitting six dual-station vises on the table of a CM-1, with 12" x 10" travels.

 

[LOTT]

Price a Brother from Yamazen before writing them off. Sometimes they have base machines at a discount, I'd take a base S500 over a DT any day.

Regarding the 40x20 with multiple vises- for qty 50 parts its probably not worth it, expecially if soft jaws are needed.

What parts do you WANT to make? Your new machine is going to be best for a certain class. My Speedio won't hold parts that fit in @triumph406 Fadal, and his Fadal won't keep up (price/time competitively) on drill/tap parts that I run. And neither machine will make something that belongs on a horizontal or mill/turn.

I would encourage you to look at 4th axis, for protoypes they open up a lot of options.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Finally, it does seem like a newer era used machine would be a good fit here. Besides onsite inspection and a 3rd part ballbar/evaluation is there anything else I can do to reduce risk?

Don't pay to much........IMHO if I'm at 70+% of new, I'd go new. Warranty, etc. all comes into play here.....and you know nobody bashed it.
.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

Since the OP has neither large parts nor high volumes, the above advice just saddles him with a poor choice of machine. As a former machine tool industry employee did you miss out on the part about listening to the potential customer’s needs???

I most certainly heard the customer, and as a shop owner, I know - first hand - what happens to hamstrung operation. I've been there.
A 40 X 20, or even a 30 X 18, would have room to grow which is how one survives in this business without being unduly large or unwieldy.

Did you miss the part where the OP stated he was looking at several machines considerably larger than what they had? Because I didn't.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

A lot of this may hinge on your local machine suppliers. Do you have any relationship with your local Haas Factory Outlet? I've heard bad things about certain territories and have literally considered that in my future plans to move. A good HFO and district sales person can make or break an ownership experience. That will go for other brands as well. Advice I give you based on my southern California territory may not at all apply for you somewhere else.

As others have said: envelope is more important than speed. A DT machine is fast but, so what? Do you reprogram parts enough times to really get all the redundant motions out and really lean out the process? Is even a full minute per cycle on 50 parts going to matter if you had to turn other work away due to the small envelope of a DT? I don't even run my VF-2 at 100% rapid most of the time. In practice it saves maybe 10-15 seconds per cycle and that's not worth beating up the motors and ball screws for the small savings on batch work.

And as others have also mentioned: cost had better be cheaper than $60K unless the thing is like 2-3 years old AND what you want. Rigging is expensive in the private world. The dealers have pricing and delivery worked into their quotes and they get deals. The Haas control has gotten many new features over recent years. It's not just Next Gen Control and they're all the same after that. A new machine is also delivered and warranted in place. That means whatever you would have paid for a ballbar test and maybe installation, can simply go toward the purchase of exactly what you want.

Personally: I'd get the VF-2SSYT. The YT option gets you 20" of Y travel instead of 16". More envelope for not much more money or footprint. Only downside is the head allegedly nods a little in fast, heavy cuts. Hanging out 4" further makes it a little less rigid than a standard VF-2. It literally came out six months after I bought my VF-2 or I'd have one. I'd absolutely get the Renishaw probing option. It's too good and too much value to pass up.

Finally: Haas has some great deals on in-stock machines right now. Go to their website. The package price is very aggresive and they have some low rate financing options with the sale pricing. I didn't see a YT machine on there but they have a number of VF-2SS machines available.

Brother? Appear to be very fast but, again: which is worth more to you, speed or envelope? Speed wins if I have parts that fit that envelope and I have thousands to grind out. Envelope wins if I don't know what I'll be making.

Doosan, DN solutions? Again, depends on your local support network. Do your homework.

 

[Orange Vise]

I think the VF2, SVM, and a Brother S700 are all good choices.

The VF2 is going to be the easiest to use by far since you're already familiar with Haas at work, and they're just easy to use in general.

The DN is the heaviest duty among the three. If you're going to take any heavy cuts or have some long tool stickouts, this machine will shine.

The Brother is the fastest with the best long term reliability. An S700 purchased today will likely still be in service 40 years from now.

I'd probably shy away from the DT-2. This type of machine is not in their wheelhouse. Might be a different story if you got a smoking deal on it, as long as it's the CAT40 version.

 

[Chips Everywhere]

I would stay away from the DT2, we took delivery of a new one a little over a year ago and it has been nothing but problems. I think the HFO has put in more repair time on the machine than we have in cutting time, I don't think the machine has even 100hrs on it.

I wish we got a Brother instead of a DT2. We got the Haas to save some money, but at this point the down time, space it occupies, work we lost because of it and service it has needed, has made the DT2 a significantly more expensive machine than a Brother.

 

[Digital Factory]

I would stay away from the DT2, we took delivery of a new one a little over a year ago and it has been nothing but problems. I think the HFO has put in more repair time on the machine than we have in cutting time, I don't think the machine has even 100hrs on it.

I wish we got a Brother instead of a DT2. We got the Haas to save some money, but at this point the down time, space it occupies, work we lost because of it and service it has needed, has made the DT2 a significantly more expensive machine than a Brother.

That sucks.

Can you share the specific issues you've had with it?

Haas needs engineering discipline. Stop coming out with new models and fix their existing models, like the UMC.

 

[Chips Everywhere]

That sucks.

Can you share the specific issues you've had with it?

Haas needs engineering discipline. Stop coming out with new models and fix their existing models, like the UMC.

The main consistent one has been the X and Y axis randomly “jerk/thump” so you can’t get a good surface finish. This can sometimes cause tolerance and gouging issues as well. The problem shows up when you manually jog the machine as well.

They have tried software updates, encoders, a servo and a bunch of other stuff that I have lost track off.

I couldn’t imagine being a small shop just starting out and end up with a problematic machine like this one, it could possibly tank you.

The VF2SS we have has been significantly less problematic, so maybe lean towards that one? On the plus side, the HFO keeps sending the tech to try to address the issue.

 

[EmGo]

The main consistent one has been the X and Y axis randomly “jerk/thump” so you can’t get a good surface finish.

What the heck ? It's just a motor and feedback, machines have had ballscrews since the very first one*, how can you flock that up ?

* I think, better go look that up ... some Gorton tracers had ballscrews even before there was nc tho, so ....

 

[Chips Everywhere]

What the heck ? It's just a motor and feedback, machines have had ballscrews since the very first one*, how can you flock that up ?

* I think, better go look that up ... some Gorton tracers had ballscrews even before there was nc tho, so ....

Im no expert, though I did find out that ball screws may appear simple but they can be finicky and can introduce all kinds of errors.

 

[EmGo]

ball screws may appear simple but they can be finicky

So are internal combustion engines but you do not expect your new car to leap around like a moose in heat if the gas pedal is held steady.

 

[vandytech]

Hi Everyone,

I'd love to get some feedback on an upcoming VMC purchase. I've read many many threads on PM on the topic but have a few specific questions for my scenario.

Shop Profile
Single person shop, I've been fortunate to grow business with my Omniturn lathe and Tormach 770. I'm moving to new space and looking for a new mill, the Tormach has been very limiting (obviously). I have 10 years working in/around CNC manufacturing. My primary customers are hardware start ups with tight prototype schedule requests.

Current Part Profile
80% aluminum, 10% stainless, 10% random others (copper, delrin, plastics, titanium)
90% fit in a 6" vise
Volumes per job are mainly less than 50x
Many features require ~1/4" end mill

Machines Considered
Used VF2SS in the $60k range
Very lightly used DT-2 from previously employer, 15k spindle, $60k range
New machine, potentially SVM 4100 or VF2SS ($80-$90K, would require some financing)

Key Questions
I'm tempted by what I think is a good deal on the DT-2, especially to get a 15k spindle for smaller tools but worried about; 30 taper (not dual contact), max bed weight (250lb), and long nose-to-table. Am I being too cautious?
It seems like there are decent condition machines in the 60k range with an approximate 20-30k savings off new. I would pay for a 3rd party inspection to try and reduce risk. How much of that risk can be mitigated with inspection? I'm within 2hrs of my HFO in case of repairs.
Is a 15k 30 taper spindle an upgrade vs a 12k 40 taper? That's 20% faster feeds anywhere that I'm RPM limited with the 12k.
Given the used budget, what is the large value in stepping up to a new machine+financing?

Comments
I know that Haas machines have their limitations but I'm familiar with the control and as a solo operator, the online resources are very valuable. Given the surfacing and HSM toolpaths I like to run, I would enable the high-speed-machining option.
I'm comfortable and familiar with Fanuc so not scared on machines with that option.
Brothers often get recommended here but I think they are a little out of budget and/or don't resolve some of the concerns I have around 30 taper

Appreciate any and all feedback, it's really helpful seeing how other shops have approached these decisions.

How many tool changes do you do on your prototype parts? First off, congrats on wanting to grow and move on to the next step of improving your current processes. Lots of great suggestions from everyone. On the one hand, one could suggest that if your current prototype work is going to always be there, and you are keeping that current customer happy, maybe a larger table isn’t all that necessary. But you can’t guarantee that, at all. Things change.
My suggestion, FWIW, is a Brother S700, or for even more flexibility, S1000. Room for vises, on one side, plate work (with a riser) on the other side. The tool are accessible.
Back to my first question; time, even for prototype work, should be saved whenever possible because it will be lost somewhere else.

 

[Areo Defense]

The main consistent one has been the X and Y axis randomly “jerk/thump” so you can’t get a good surface finish. This can sometimes cause tolerance and gouging issues as well. The problem shows up when you manually jog the machine as well.

They have tried software updates, encoders, a servo and a bunch of other stuff that I have lost track off.

I couldn’t imagine being a small shop just starting out and end up with a problematic machine like this one, it could possibly tank you.

The VF2SS we have has been significantly less problematic, so maybe lean towards that one? On the plus side, the HFO keeps sending the tech to try to address the issue.

At my old company we had numerous Haas machines to compliment the Makinos and Moris. They generally were decent machines, for the price range, but there was one VF, out of 10, that must have been assembled on a Friday before a big holiday because that one had a stack of service invoices as thick as War and Peace. A machine that problematic is a huge headache for anyone but it's especially impactful on a small shop. The other thing is to feed them work that is in their scope of purpose. One of our managers would try to push the EC1600's they bought as hard as our big Niigata SP. Yeah, they were disappointed lol.

As for the ball screws, we had a small cell that machined abrasive material which got in everywhere on the machine, even with a large Torit per machine. From their baseline, the ballscrews/nuts would gradually decline to the point where surface irregularities, similar to what you describe, would require service attention. Typically a day's labor, new screw/nut assembly and thrust bearing later, the machine would back to it's baseline. One thing for sure, a Haas ballscrew/nut is way less expensive than our Makinos lol.

A friend worked for GE Aerospace in Michigan and they had a ton of Haas VF's. I seem to recall they had similar experiences with the occasional lemon but generally they worked fine for their type of parts.

 

[MotoX]

Check out this one from our very own

2018 YCM small VMC for sale - 700 hours - Pristine !

Not much larger than a Robodrill, but for more heavier milling CAT40 with Hexagon probe system. For sale by me.... https://www.ebay.com/itm/204363122243?hash=item2f94fdc643:g:wI4AAOSwjyBkh2ji

www.practicalmachinist.com

If this one is still available by my year end, there is a good chance I'll be buying it.

 

[seahuston]

Again, thank you everyone for the feedback.
On table size: I don't think a 40x20 is in the budget and I don't think my current network has any parts that require it (for sure knocking wood). My main value add would be ability to leave multiple setups out. I don't want to go much smaller than 30x16 and have the available floor space.

Feeling okay about 30 taper but maybe not in the DT-2. Unless I can get it for really cheap, the great condition still probably doesn't add enough value vs. another used VF2SS. I'll quote around with Brother again but I think they're pushing my budget a little too high.

Working on a quote for the SVM 4100, seems like a great deal and a whole lot of value in the price.