Hello, I am new to this forum and just wanted your opinion on what might be the smartest business move to make. I started a shop up in the garage around spring time and have been doing pretty well, always busy running day and night. I started with a 2016 Haas Super Mini Mill and it has worked well for me, although it does have some quirks such as the chip auger constantly being clogged(even with shorter chips), leaky, etc. Im at the point where I’m planning to purchase a new VMC in the Spring Time and move into a shop. I’ve narrowed it down between the haas VF2ss and the DN Solutions (Doosan) DNM4500S. The haas would be around 85k and the DNM would be about $126k but have many more options/speed. After running haas and seeing doosan, I believe doosan to be more robust and better built, but the haas has made me a lot of money too. The main things I’m looking at, Is reliability, service times, accuracy, and lifespan. Haas is about 4 weeks out for service all the time in my area (SoCal) which is very concerning as machines will need service eventually no matter which brand. Not sure if I should try and save some money by buying the haas or if I should go on the high end of my budget with the DNM in hopes that it will outperform and outlive the haas. Just to be clear, not trying to start another Haas Vs Doosan debate as there are plenty of those and I’ve already put hands on both, just looking for opinions on the smartest investment/business decision. Thank you!
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VMC Purchase
- Thread starter Miller846
- Start date
- Replies 19
- Views 2,386
I don’t have first hand experience with them but according to the salesman, they are always within a week, granted he’s trying to sell a machine. I visited a shop local to me full of doosan and the owner said they’ve been very responsive the couple times he’s needed it, so I’m going to say yes, they do seem to be much better than haas in regards to service time. I’m also wondering why haas service team is that busy, is it because there’s always service needed with haas? Just something I’ve thought about. Thanks!
Overland
Stainless
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2017
- Location
- Greenville, SC
There may well be an independent freelance guy in your area. I've found a Mazak trained independent guy in my area and it has worked very well for me.
Bob
Bob
DouglasJRizzo
Titanium
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2011
- Location
- Ramsey, NJ.
One thing about DN (Doosan) is that they do stock parts. Also, I think that Ellison is the distributor in your area.
I'd ask a few Doosan folk how the service is around you. Find out what shops run them.
I'd ask a few Doosan folk how the service is around you. Find out what shops run them.
wrustle
Titanium
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Location
- Massachusetts
With a shop full of Doosans, that's why he's getting better service lead times than most. You being in a garage with just the one machine will never be a priority regardless of machine tool builder.
I have a shop full of Haas machines. Lead times are never more than a week, but my HFO (Haas Factory Outlet) is about 60 minutes away so that certainly helps.
Jumping from a mini, to a VF-2 or any other builder of similar size will be a big step up with regard to nearly everything.
Good luck in your proposed expansion!
Once you start, it will never end!
Later,
Russ
Scruffy887
Titanium
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2012
- Location
- Se Ma USA
Make a simple business plan looking down the road. Cash flow projections, etc. New shop will have rent, heat, electricity, and wiring needed to hook machines up. The Haas at 85k leaves you more money to make the move into a new shop. Also makes it easier to add a second machine of your choice at a later date. Don't underestimate the time and expense (and down time) of making this move. Ideal situation would have the new machine up and running in the new space BEFORE you start the move.
Just my thoughts and I am a Mazak shop.
Just my thoughts and I am a Mazak shop.
How big is your work? Is it too big for your SMM? What material?
If you don't have to use huge cutters, get a Brother. I had a SMM, VF-2, MM2 with the HSM turned on, and a Robo. I went all in on Brother and could not be happier. Regarding service visits? None required. I did change some machining parameters, but ALL my cycle times went down, some by more than 50 percent.
If you don't have to use huge cutters, get a Brother. I had a SMM, VF-2, MM2 with the HSM turned on, and a Robo. I went all in on Brother and could not be happier. Regarding service visits? None required. I did change some machining parameters, but ALL my cycle times went down, some by more than 50 percent.
Definitely and that’s one of the main things I am looking at as well, having money left for reserves/support equipment/tooling with the haas. Thanks!
Currently, I have to turn down a lot of work due to size limitations and It has cost me to lose out on a few good jobs where they don’t want partial quotes. I have quoted with subbing out the larger parts and doing the smaller stuff in house but then I can’t compete on pricing as easily, most of the parts I am looking to do are 30”x 20” and under which is why I am looking at the vf2/4500 size. Mostly aluminum, with the occasional stainless,copper, and brass. Thanks!
I agree, the only thing I really do at the machine is probing/tool setting, the rest is all through my computer so I am open to learning the fanuc.
That is true, although when I worked for a local shop before starting up on my own that had a handful of vf2ss machines, they still got a 4-5 week lead time on service. Maybe they just weren’t big enough either to be given a higher priority? I’m not sure. It does scare me a little bit that the haas service team is that busy down here all the time. Having a machine go down and have to wait a month for service would be a killer especially if I only have a couple machines and rely on all of them heavily. Thanks!With a shop full of Doosans, that's why he's getting better service lead times than most. You being in a garage with just the one machine will never be a priority regardless of machine tool builder.
I have a shop full of Haas machines. Lead times are never more than a week, but my HFO (Haas Factory Outlet) is about 60 minutes away so that certainly helps.
Jumping from a mini, to a VF-2 or any other builder of similar size will be a big step up with regard to nearly everything.
Good luck in your proposed expansion!
Once you start, it will never end!
Later,
Russ
Brother does have the 1000 machine, which is big enough. I hate downtime, and zero downtime on my machines. Good luck!
Orange Vise
Titanium
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2012
- Location
- California
Identify your next milestone, extrapolated from previous milestones.
Then ask yourself, what's the best way to get from point A to point B?
It most certainly will, but longevity past 15 years is well past your Point B.
It'll also consume more resources right off the bat. Resources that could be spent on other things that could increase your capability, like a rotary.
As for Haas, HFOs generally prioritize warranty calls so you won't be looking at 4 weeks during your first year. There are also plenty of independent techs that can help you out of a bind sooner.
BROTHERFRANK
Stainless
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2013
- Location
- SoCal
The Brother Speedio W1000Xd1 has 40" X travel and 20" Y travel in a compact 8' x 8' footprint. 10k rpm High Torque (can drill 1.5" dia in steel) or 16k rpm spindle options. Runs on 200-230V 3 phase, 30A breaker. Shops love the user friendliness, performance and reliability. Great 4th axis and tilting rotary options. Local service comes out of Yorba Linda, CA (when necessary!). Typically one to two days service response time in SoCal. Brother has installed over 200,000 machines worldwide. Feel free to contact me with any questions.
Houdini
Titanium
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2017
Just to put this out there, I did this same thing, bought a machine a year for the past 5 years, Now I have a shop full of Haas machines, and I wish I wouldn't have done it.
Yes, it did make me money, and a business that I can now buy the machines I want. But I could have started that sooner, wasted years, and the post pandemic Haas machines have had a lot of problems,
search the forums, there is a large trend of people getting sub-par build quality on their Haas machines.
Here are some other options to look at, The brother Speedio S700x2 $100k base, DN Solutions(Doosan) SVM4100 Base $80k, and the Mazak Ez16 base $90k
All these machines are better than a Haas and the same price or less. I personally would kit out a SVM4100 for less than the Haas and it is a better engineered machine.
If you are using a CAM software, which I am sure your using F360 like every newb millennial shop owner, the control doesn't matter, don't get caught up in the control argument BS,
your just grabbing work offsets, tool offsets, and loading a file, and run.
And my Haas service is Awesome, they are here within the hour, or at the least the next morning, but they are only 10min. away.
Yes, it did make me money, and a business that I can now buy the machines I want. But I could have started that sooner, wasted years, and the post pandemic Haas machines have had a lot of problems,
search the forums, there is a large trend of people getting sub-par build quality on their Haas machines.
Here are some other options to look at, The brother Speedio S700x2 $100k base, DN Solutions(Doosan) SVM4100 Base $80k, and the Mazak Ez16 base $90k
All these machines are better than a Haas and the same price or less. I personally would kit out a SVM4100 for less than the Haas and it is a better engineered machine.
If you are using a CAM software, which I am sure your using F360 like every newb millennial shop owner, the control doesn't matter, don't get caught up in the control argument BS,
your just grabbing work offsets, tool offsets, and loading a file, and run.
And my Haas service is Awesome, they are here within the hour, or at the least the next morning, but they are only 10min. away.
Very helpful, thank you. I’m not worried about the control as like you said, it’s really only used for offsets and loading a program. I’m much more concerned with the reliability and quality of the machine. Being as small as I am, I can’t afford to have a machine go down with a 4 week service lead time. I’ve tried to pinch Pennys in the past on things that I really rely on and it’s always bitten me. So I don’t want to make the same mistake again. Thank you for your insight!
Houdini
Titanium
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2017
I personally told all my salesmen that I am done buying entry level machines, We are going to swap our small Haas VMC's with better built more reliable Speedio's, and our larger machines we have settled on Mazak, but we wont buy any of their entry level (Ez)machines, or their made in Kentucky machines. Its horizontals with pallet pools time!!!
Awesome, I wish you luck! Both of them should treat you pretty well!
