VMC vs drill tap centers. New machine help

[eosprein]

Hello,

From India here. We are a small shop making built-to-print parts with a couple of CNC turning and Swiss machines. I am looking for investing in our first in-house milling machine (we usually outsource the milling jobs to single machine job-shops in our group - they use Haas / BFW milling machines).

I am working on a carbon steel part that requires rotary chucking for performing profile milling on all sides of the part, and looking towards investing a machine in-house for the same and for future usage.

Options : Haas VF2(i), Mazak VC EZ 410, Robodrill Alpa Plus 500 model, Brother Speedio S500 model, other similar Indian make machines from LMW / BFW
All machines to be fitted with either 4 axis rotary chuck or additional 5 axis preparation

Sales and service between above companies side is not an issue really, all 4 of the above brands are at par with each other. I don't have an idea of cost of spares later on if something happens by accident.

I tried considering DMG but they seem too pricey, and not sure about their quality lately. Only thing I heard about them is that they have everything necessary as an options for the machine and the final cost balloons up vastly.

Other option is Doosan, but their service network is sparse where I am situated, not many machines sold in our region.

Coming to the point

1) Should I go for entry level VMC with 4/5 axis preparation or go for a Drill tap with 4/5 axis preparation. I know it depends on the type of parts we intend to make, so below point might give a decent idea on the application

2) We mill mostly non-ferrous (aluminium and copper alloys) with occasional steels (carbon and Stainless), but nothing with heavy milling so far, and everything under the part pocket size of 200 x 200 x 100 mm pocket size. Majority of the parts we have encountered till now since 3 years of our inception are under the pocket size of 70 x 70 x 100 mm packet size and majority from non-ferrous.

3) The current part we intend to make is out of carbon steel with majority milling and the block pocket size of 20 x 15 x 60 mm.


Any inputs that might help me better select are welcome, thanks!

 

[DavidScott]

What are your typical run quantities?

 

[Orange Vise]

The Speedio S500 fits your workpiece descriptions.

They're also the fastest and most reliable with the easiest and lowest cost repairs.

 

[david n]

Speedio..........I drank the Koolaid a few years ago and it tasted like high production.

 

[DavidScott]

I have a Speedio R650 and generally it makes parts as fast as I can swap them. It often can go faster but then it would just sit waiting for me to finish swapping parts.

 

[Mtndew]

Which manufacturer has the best representation and service for your area?

 

[eosprein]

What are your typical run quantities?

Anywhere between 500 nos to 40,000 nos

 

[eosprein]

Which manufacturer has the best representation and service for your area?

1) Yamazen represents Brother machines
2) Haas is from Phillips Machine Tools
3) Fanuc Robos is handled by Fanuc directly
4) Mazak is being handled by Mazak India
5) Doosan is new to the market here by DN Solutions (the new Doosan entity)

Yamazen and Haas have the most presence in the market in terms of sales and service, having heard both good and bad about the them both.

Fanuc does not have much presence in my area in terms of both machine numbers and service, as they are currently expanding.

Mazak has good presence, but they are trying to push their new series of machines which are built/assembled in India, and I am not too keen to go with that option as we had a really bad experience dealing with Indian assembled machines by Tsugami India.

Doosan has the least amount of presence here, it would be risky from service point of view if I blindly trust on their quality which is praised by many online.

 

[eosprein]

The Speedio S500 fits your workpiece descriptions.

They're also the fastest and most reliable with the easiest and lowest cost repairs.

A jobshop guy we are working with pointed out the following based on his experience working with both VF2 machines and Speedio S500 / S700 modesl:

1) Both machines are almost identical for our application types in terms of repeatability and accuracy
2) For Non-Ferrous materials, the Speedio would be considerably faster compared to Haas due to rapid acceleration and comparable depth of cuts
3) For steels, the Speedio is limited to a max Depth of Cut of 2 mm max (in his experience), whereas he has worked with Depth of Cuts of 5 mm max on his VF2 machine
4) He suggested to go with VF2 for our first machine, in case we encounter any heavy mill jobs out of steel material

 

[DavidScott]

With what you describe I would say Brother hands down, but for those numbers I would go with a rotating table. In my shop, the rotating table is worth about 40% more parts a day since it swaps parts without operator involvement. From the parts you describe if you go with a Haas you will wish you had a Brother. Remember that a core principle of lean is you should get the machine to make the parts you make, not the one you would need for parts you might make. The Brother is also easier to work on and way more reliable, while using a fraction of the electricity and air. Mine uses around 4-5 amps in full production and my 80-gallon tank compressor cycles about once every 2 hours.

Here are some videos of me running my R650 for reference, including a walk-around video. This is typical of most of my work on this machine including steel parts, me being able to swap parts is often the limiting factor on how many I can make an hour. The nice thing is I don't waste any time walking around between machines.

 

[Wsurfer]

3) For steels, the Speedio is limited to a max Depth of Cut of 2 mm max (in his experience),

Not sure what He means by 2mm ?

 

[Pete Deal]

I have a speedio s1000. Not buying the 2/4mm cut depth. I have made some parts out of 1”x 5/8” 303 stainless bar. I had to remove a big chunk out of the middle. Cuts were about 5/8” deep, trochoidal tool path. 3/8” corn cob endmill In a super short maritool holder i think about 8% step over. It really cut beautifully with terrific tool life. I’m sure you’ll need to change approach a little from what might be done with a 40 taper but these Brothers are quite capable.

 

[???]

Don't drink the Haas Kool aid about 40 v 30 taper. It's what holds the taper in place that gives rigidity and Haas is definitely not the most rigid machine tool.

I run a 30 taper Kira next to Haas and the Kira will do a quicker and more accurate job all day long. Kira is also 16 years older and less prone to problems.

 

[604Pook]

With what you describe I would say Brother hands down, but for those numbers I would go with a rotating table. In my shop, the rotating table is worth about 40% more parts a day since it swaps parts without operator involvement. From the parts you describe if you go with a Haas you will wish you had a Brother. Remember that a core principle of lean is you should get the machine to make the parts you make, not the one you would need for parts you might make. The Brother is also easier to work on and way more reliable, while using a fraction of the electricity and air. Mine uses around 4-5 amps in full production and my 80-gallon tank compressor cycles about once every 2 hours.

Here are some videos of me running my R650 for reference, including a walk-around video. This is typical of most of my work on this machine including steel parts, me being able to swap parts is often the limiting factor on how many I can make an hour. The nice thing is I don't waste any time walking around between machines.

That's interesting to know on the power usage and air. I run my shop off a phase converter and newer faster machines are on my wish list. My limit for filling this place up is having enough work (of course) and the power available.

 

[DavidScott]

The 2mm doc probably is referencing a face mill. I know my 2-1/2" face mill will easily put the load meter in the red cutting steel. I do understand that it runs well below the power band on my 16k spindle.

I have wondered how much headroom my 10hp PP has. I have run production on the Brother while the Kitamura is doing a warmup program but never tried any production on both at the same time.

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

I'd go VMC as opposed to drill/tap if you're going to be cutting metal at any sort of production.
Many drill/tap machines can do light milling, but why stress a machine?

 

[empower]

haas shouldnt even be part of the choice matrix. brother hands down IMO.

 

[DavidScott]

I'd go VMC as opposed to drill/tap if you're going to be cutting metal at any sort of production.
Many drill/tap machines can do light milling, but why stress a machine?

If I switched to a VMC I would have to tripple my rate to make the same $$.

 

[Mtndew]

I'd go VMC as opposed to drill/tap if you're going to be cutting metal at any sort of production.

Production is literally what the Brother excels at.

 

[empower]

I'd go VMC as opposed to drill/tap if you're going to be cutting metal at any sort of production.
Many drill/tap machines can do light milling, but why stress a machine?

says the doosan rep :P