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VMC vs drill tap centers. New machine help

Vancbiker

Diamond
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Location
Vancouver, WA. USA
You can fit even more of those parts in one set up, on a larger machine.
That's why I did what I did.
If the order quantities are small then that is not a good reason. It is much better to fit your machine choices to the work you choose to pursue. That by nature, means that what’s best for one shop is not going to be the same as best for another.
 

DavidScott

Diamond
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
You can fit even more of those parts in one set up, on a larger machine.
That's why I did what I did.
The problem with that is there are more fixture offsets to deal with, more fixture stations to make and locate, and those pallets get pretty big and cumbersome unless you swap parts with the spindle stopped, which really adds to the cycle time. You can have those very rare jobs that are too big for my little machines, and all the while I will eat your lunch on everything else. I am keeping in mind what the op said they do, palm-sized parts in run sizes of 100-150.
 

eaglemike

Stainless
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Location
san diego
Remember that with the turning table machines, you don't have just one 650mm (or 450 or whatever) travel table, you have two.
I used to be an advocate of the larger single table machine, until I bought my first R450. With some jobs the spindle only stops while the table is turning - but the machine is also changing tools and repositioning while the table is turning. It's an eye opener if one hasn't experienced it.
 

DouglasJRizzo

Titanium
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Location
Ramsey, NJ.
The problem with that is there are more fixture offsets to deal with, more fixture stations to make and locate, and those pallets get pretty big and cumbersome unless you swap parts with the spindle stopped, which really adds to the cycle time. You can have those very rare jobs that are too big for my little machines, and all the while I will eat your lunch on everything else. I am keeping in mind what the op said they do, palm-sized parts in run sizes of 100-150.
I just don't see a problem with that. I routinely do this type of machining/programming. That's why those control features exist. I make my own pallets and slide them in at the end of the cycle. Hit "start" and back in the race.
 

DouglasJRizzo

Titanium
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Location
Ramsey, NJ.
For low quantities making pallets is a waste of time and no matter how fast your pit stops are, a slow car never wins the race.
Well, I have to respectfully disagree. One pallet is set, and running, another is set for a different job. ATC the indicator, pick up a G54 ~ G59 and next job is running. Job B is running and I'm packing Job A for shipment. Every time.
 

Vancbiker

Diamond
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Location
Vancouver, WA. USA
Well, I have to respectfully disagree. One pallet is set, and running, another is set for a different job. ATC the indicator, pick up a G54 ~ G59 and next job is running. Job B is running and I'm packing Job A for shipment. Every time.
Seems that if you are making pallets then indicating for a fixture offset is also a waste. You should already know its location. Heck, if you had a right sized and fast machine then job B might be done before job A is packaged 😉.

Really, all this discussion says is that there are many ways we each believe to to do things best and make money at the same time
 

DavidScott

Diamond
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
I just don't see a problem with that. I routinely do this type of machining/programming. That's why those control features exist. I make my own pallets and slide them in at the end of the cycle. Hit "start" and back in the race.
You make pallets for 100-150 palm sized parts?
 

DouglasJRizzo

Titanium
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Location
Ramsey, NJ.
Seems that if you are making pallets then indicating for a fixture offset is also a waste. You should already know its location. Heck, if you had a right sized and fast machine then job B might be done before job A is packaged 😉.

Really, all this discussion says is that there are many ways we each believe to to do things best and make money at the same time
Not really, it goes right thru, get's picked up and off it goes.
About 5 min or so, max., and the next batch is running. A lot quicker than load/unload vises/fixtures. But then, it just works for me.
 

DavidScott

Diamond
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
Here is my rebuttal in favor of the smaller, faster machine. If the run size was larger than the ops it would be an 8 station vise. I underbid the job so I did a little more fat trimming on this program. Please excuse the slow feeds as I don't cut much steel and will speed it up as I see how the tools wear. I also haven't machined 416SS before. Parts come off the machine fully deburred. I blow the coolant off, put them in a box, and off to the customer they go. Stock is 3/4" sq x 2" long and the finished part is 1/8" thick at the bottom.

By the way, I have 806 square inches of table travel real estate, which is a hair more than a 40" x 20" machine. In the video mine is using 4 amps, how much would that 40" x 20" machine draw?

 
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Ironmuffin

Plastic
Joined
May 7, 2023
Can someone please explain to me the difference between a drill and tap center vs a VMC? like a robot drill and speedio vs a VF4? I can see the difference in shape and config, but what is the purpose of a drill and tap center that a VMC cannot accomplish? a VMC also has more tool pockets. is the Haas DT-2 comparable to a brother speedio? why would a drill and tap center be picked over a VMC?
please advise and thank you! :)
 

LOTT

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Can someone please explain to me the difference between a drill and tap center vs a VMC? like a robot drill and speedio vs a VF4? I can see the difference in shape and config, but what is the purpose of a drill and tap center that a VMC cannot accomplish? a VMC also has more tool pockets.
To my understanding: Historically drill/tap machines were just that, adding threaded holes to stamped or extruded parts that didn't require machining. To that end they had fast positioning and tool changes at the cost of lower rigidity.

Modern Robos and Brothers are much more capable of machining so the line is a bit blurred, but still aren't built for heavy hogging or large/long stick out tools.

On work that has some roughing and a lot of "details" a drill/tap will outrun the VMC, especially smaller parts. Not that the VMC can't do it, it would just take longer.

is the Haas DT-2 comparable to a brother speedio?
No comment....

why would a drill and tap center be picked over a VMC?
please advise and thank you! :)
Faster parts and less power consumption for the right parts.
 

BROTHERFRANK

Stainless
Joined
Dec 20, 2013
Location
SoCal
Can someone please explain to me the difference between a drill and tap center vs a VMC? like a robot drill and speedio vs a VF4? I can see the difference in shape and config, but what is the purpose of a drill and tap center that a VMC cannot accomplish? a VMC also has more tool pockets. is the Haas DT-2 comparable to a brother speedio? why would a drill and tap center be picked over a VMC?
please advise and thank you! :)
Brother dropped the Tapping Center moniker from their nomenclature about 10 years ago when they went with Speedio for marketing their Compact Machining Center line. The controls became much more capable, the rigidity and horsepower increased dramatically and features such as great rotary table options, high pressure coolant thru spindle and tool and part probing etc put them in a niche for machining smaller (hold in your hand, shoe box, pizza box) parts more efficiently. Less floor space, less power consumption, less time....
Comp mach ctr.JPG
 

Vancbiker

Diamond
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Location
Vancouver, WA. USA
IIRC, in the 80s to 90s there was an import duty advantage if a small machine center was imported as a drill and tap machine. Many builders made small machines that despite being called drill/tap machines had full featured CNC controls with circular interpolation, and cutter radius comp and ran standard G, M code programs. Early Brother controls could only be programmed conversationally and lacked circular interpolation and radius comp.
 

DavidScott

Diamond
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
I think the biggest features of a Drill/Tap mill are the spindle nose won't get closer than about 7-8 inches to the table and weak drawbar tension. If you want to work from vises you can't just clamp them on the table and still reach the parts with short gage length tool holders. I don't think there were that many Drill/Tap mills that couldn't do any milling with 1/2" mills. Robo Drills have always been up to it as far as I know, except for one that was sold as a Pratt and Whitney Tape Mate A in the mid 70s. Just because a mill has 2,000 ipm rapids, a 30 taper spindle, and sub 1 second tool changes doesn't make it a Drill/Tap, there are VMCs that do that.
 








 
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