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Walmart moron.

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One funny part is, even in the west, where guns really were a tool, there were lots of towns and establishments that said "no guns allowed, check your guns when you come in".
Again, you have NO idea what you're talking about. Your old West history seems to have come from movies...you know, totally inaccurate.

There were some cities, mostly larger, that had gun control back then, but it wasn't widespread and was already subjected to legal challenges going back at least to 1840. That's why the 1861 OK Corral gunfight in Tombstone AZ was such a big deal.

Comparing developing towns in the old West to modern society is pointless. A Walmart in West Lafayette, IN (where you stand a 1 in 751 chance of being the victim of violent crime) isn't Dodge City. Further, most people back then didn't own handguns, much less carry them, as they were expensive and not the tool they needed.
 
Oh it's not just me ... the entire rest of the world thinks you are all nuts. Pretty much nobody anywhere else thinks this whole thing is sane. It's limited to the US.
So says the guy who lives in a country where if you jaywalk your picture, name, ID card number (think about that one) pops up on a big display board and a fine gets subtracted from your bank account!

Yeah, we might have a different perspective on things.
 
So says the guy who lives in a country where if you jaywalk your picture, name, ID card number (think about that one) pops up on a big display board and a fine gets subtracted from your bank account!
Yeah, but I think you're forgetting about the founding principles of government, where the people demanded that *something be done about jaywalking* and thousands of men were willing to give up their lives so that their posterity wouldn't have to live with such outrageous anarchy.
 
Oh it's not just me ... the entire rest of the world thinks you are all nuts. Pretty much nobody anywhere else thinks this whole thing is sane. It's limited to the US.

One funny part is, even in the west, where guns really were a tool, there were lots of towns and establishments that said "no guns allowed, check your guns when you come in". But many of you think it's cool for some fat fuck to waddle around a modern supermarket carrying his six-shooter like he's a texas ranger.

The rest of the world thinks you are nuts. Not just me. Seven billion people or so.

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I have a suggestion. Head over to the nearest girls' school. High school, junior high, elementary, doesn't matter. Walk into the middle and take your dick out, waggle it around. Walk around the halls a while. Drop your pants down around your knees, make sure they get a good view.

Freedom, man ! Freedom ! It's just a dick ! everyone has one ! Freedom's scary ! If those snowflakes can't handle it, tell em to move to California !

Try that and let me know how it works. This is exactly what a lot of you are proposing. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change.
well i'm glad we live in america where we dont give a fuck about what the rest of the world thinks about us
 
Lots of folk open carry here, I like the gals in the summer wearing a sundress with a six shooter hanging on her hip. I feel better in a restaurant seeing a half dozen handguns in plain view and you don't hear about that crash and grab or burgers much around here. We don't have a Walmart within 120 miles and don't miss it, sometimes here it takes an hour to get out of the grocery store or post office because you see so many folks you know and just have to stop and visit for a bit.
I love lots of openly carried arms in my presence as well. You know there are like minded people who are responsible enough to protect themselves and innocent ones around them. Not the hand ringing people who have to call cops and the bitch about how they performed their job.
 
its the opposite, if i'm the bad guy, i wanna take out the guy i KNOW has a gun first, then i get free reign to do my terror. why make yourself a target? not only in a bad guy scenario though, even just in a normal day to day situation - you're walking around whatever place you're at, someone doesnt like you wearing a piece openly, they call the cops and make up some bullshit about you, cops come - they only know what someone told them over the phone. perfect recipe for disaster and shit getting out of hand. there isnt ONE good reason to open carry these days. 1-200 years ago? absofuckinglutely! not with the snowflakes everywhere though. you couldnt pay me enough to open carry. i'd rather always have the element of surprise.
Like I said, it's a double-edged sword. It's not as cut and dried as some folks claim, and I'm saying that as someone who only carries concealed.

If a mass shooter shows up it's pretty unlikely they're going to see the person open carrying before they get started and it's not like they walk around to check on things before they get started. They walk through the door and start shooting....sometimes even before they walk through the door. Still, that scenario is extremely unlikely compared with normal street crime. It's so unlikely I can't see how it would drive someone's planning.

In normal street crime the bad guy(s) watch and wait for an easy target. They don't pick the person with a gun on display. Seriously, if for some crazy circumstance you have no other choice but to go to an ATM in a bad place at 2AM, are you more or less likely to get mugged if you have a gun visible? I'd say it's a very safe bet the bad guys watching the ATM will decide to wait for the next person if you're obviously armed.

The element of surprise argument is largely bullshit for civilian CCW purposes. If a bad guy targets you, they have the element of surprise. You are simply reacting to a sudden, unexpected threat. The only time the element of surprise factors into things is if you happen to be there when a bad guy targets someone else and they aren't paying attention to you. It happens, but in many states civilians aren't legally allowed to use force in that scenario.
 
So says the guy who lives in a country where if you jaywalk your picture, name, ID card number (think about that one) pops up on a big display board and a fine gets subtracted from your bank account!
Ooh, black helicopters !

You know about as much about china as I do about addis ababa ... nothing. But don't let that stop you.

This thread is really interesting. I didn't realize that insanity was this widespread.
 
Maybe the guy knows about the 22 to 1 ratio that blacks commit crimes on whites. Though it's not on the news
as national crime statistics. What we see is white cops killing blacks. Oh, by the way, most of the unfortunate incidents
happen because the black person is resisting arrest or just running away.

And look at this sponsored by the CIA. I watched a video clip of Ice T saying that the producers wanted this gun culture tough stuff to be in their music.
The percentage of blacks is small but they just rotate in and out. I tried looking up national crime statistics based on race but couldn't verify.


Shake the beehive up. I think about growing up and liking movies with guns. Whether people are brought up on being influenced by movies with guns.
If you think you have not been influenced enough. Go watch all the John Wick movies.
 
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Oh it's not just me ... the entire rest of the world thinks you are all nuts. Pretty much nobody anywhere else thinks this whole thing is sane. It's limited to the US.

One funny part is, even in the west, where guns really were a tool, there were lots of towns and establishments that said "no guns allowed, check your guns when you come in". But many of you think it's cool for some fat fuck to waddle around a modern supermarket carrying his six-shooter like he's a texas ranger.

The rest of the world thinks you are nuts. Not just me. Seven billion people or so.

=======

I have a suggestion. Head over to the nearest girls' school. High school, junior high, elementary, doesn't matter. Walk into the middle and take your dick out, waggle it around. Walk around the halls a while. Drop your pants down around your knees, make sure they get a good view.

Freedom, man ! Freedom ! It's just a dick ! everyone has one ! Freedom's scary ! If those snowflakes can't handle it, tell em to move to California !

Try that and let me know how it works. This is exactly what a lot of you are proposing. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change.
You are confusing constitutionally protected rights with decency waving your penis around is not something that is constitutionally protected. Carrying arms is. Perhaps you need to go back to China where you “feel safe”
 
In these parts your more likely cross paths with a cranky bear, lion, elk, moose, big horn sheep than people of any color. I would rather have my .44mag on my belt than the .357 that fits in my pocket, and yes sometimes it is on my belt when I get to or pass through town.
 
bad guy targets you, they have the element of surprise. You are simply reacting to a sudden, unexpected threat. The only time the element of surprise factors into things is if you happen to be there when a bad guy targets someone else and they aren't paying attention to you. It happens, but in many states civilians aren't legally allowed to use force in that scenario.


When the "bad guy" turns his head over his shoulder and looks back, I assure you he will still be surprised that you weren't taking your wallet out for him. I personally don't agree with that assessment at all. You're in the situation until you're not, when did you ever lose the element of surprise?
 
Like I said, it's a double-edged sword. It's not as cut and dried as some folks claim, and I'm saying that as someone who only carries concealed.

If a mass shooter shows up it's pretty unlikely they're going to see the person open carrying before they get started and it's not like they walk around to check on things before they get started. They walk through the door and start shooting....sometimes even before they walk through the door. Still, that scenario is extremely unlikely compared with normal street crime. It's so unlikely I can't see how it would drive someone's planning.

In normal street crime the bad guy(s) watch and wait for an easy target. They don't pick the person with a gun on display. Seriously, if for some crazy circumstance you have no other choice but to go to an ATM in a bad place at 2AM, are you more or less likely to get mugged if you have a gun visible? I'd say it's a very safe bet the bad guys watching the ATM will decide to wait for the next person if you're obviously armed.

The element of surprise argument is largely bullshit for civilian CCW purposes. If a bad guy targets you, they have the element of surprise. You are simply reacting to a sudden, unexpected threat. The only time the element of surprise factors into things is if you happen to be there when a bad guy targets someone else and they aren't paying attention to you. It happens, but in many states civilians aren't legally allowed to use force in that scenario.
you're right, we're splitting hairs here, still though, i'd rather not give away my aces willingly.
 
When the "bad guy" turns his head over his shoulder and looks back, I assure you he will still be surprised that you weren't taking your wallet out for him. I personally don't agree with that assessment at all. You're in the situation until you're not, when did you ever lose the element of surprise?
If you're being mugged the bad guy isn't going to look away, and there's often more than one of them. That's also when they don't start out with an attack where your first sign is that the fight is already on. You can "what if" this to death and while there are a few situations where having a gun concealed gives a CCW holder a useful element of surprise, it's in the minority.

I've been teaching this topic for 17 years and have access to decades of data so I'm going off more than opinions. In the vast majority of cases it's either the fight is already on, or you have zero chance of drawing the gun while they're distracted. Generally speaking, you have to do something offensive/defensive to get to the gun. I still carry concealed all the time, but I'm realistic about how the most common scenarios happen and try to plan accordingly.
 
I moved out of the line of fire and noticed that it was not cocked and locked and 10 to one there was not one in the chamber! Another one without a clue.

I never keep a round chambered.

Firstly the chances of handling the gun with the brain disengaged, taking the magazine out prior to cleaning, and then discovering the semi will still fire with mag removed are too high. There's plenty of people dead and alive who have discovered the hard way this can happen.

Then assuming I need it in a hurry, I'm not paranoid to think that the time taken to rack the slide is realistically going to be the deciding factor between being able to effectively defend myself or not.

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So-called Israeli carry pre-dates Israel. Empty-chamber carry was adopted and popularized by legendary close quarters combat self-defense instructor W. E. Fairbairn. Fairbairn considered the relative frequency of administrative gun handling vs. actual gunfighting and declared chamberless carry to be the best method with the highest gun safety for people with limited training.

Fairbairn institutionalized the method for the Shanghai police in the early 1910s. His 1942 book Shooting to Live With the One-Hand Gun spread the gospel of empty chamber carry.

No doubt all you carry experts here would disagree. Fairburn likely forgot more about self-defense (this is what it's all about) then any of you will ever know

Most of the rest of the world didn’t switch to carrying semi-automatic pistols with a round chambered and it still hasn’t. While there are a few Israeli military units that carry pistols with a round chambered, Israelis continue to carry in real life without a round chambered. They use the support hand to manipulate the action and put a round in the chamber.


First, it’s highly discouraged to carry with one in the pipe for civilians, most military and the police. For another, empty-chamber carry satisfies the same goal that inspired the practice in the first place: sidearm safety for carriers and bystanders
.

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To qualify for duty, all Israeli military commandos and police units must meet an Israeli draw standard of 1.2 seconds for placing the first round on target at eight meters with a handgun. That’s starting with an un-chambered pistol, no round under the firing pin. I doubt that most chambered-carrying U.S. gun owners can match that at the gun range, much less in the field under pressure.


As a former IDF soldier and current U.S. civilian, I always carry chambered and train my students to do so as well. But I fully understand those who choose to carry with a loaded magazine and without a round chambered, whether for safety or psychological comfort, and regardless of each particular gun’s safety mechanisms.


In the end, your ability to defend yourself and neutralize a threat won’t come down to whether or not you carry your defensive firearm with a round of ammo chambered. It will depend on the way you train, how often, and the circumstances surrounding the altercation.


Bingo, there you have it.
How many here are sufficiently trained to even effectively carry a firearm. Either open or concealed? Admit it, very few.

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The local gun range has a new safety guy.(ex OC Sheriff asshole)

When a break is a called, all guns have to have slides back, magazines out and a chamber flag inserted. Revolvers need to be open. He inspects all of this, plus you have to stand behind a line 6' behind the shooting stalls.

Why? cause he's paranoid about getting accidently shot by some limp dick who thinks because he bought a pair of 'tactical' pants from Turners that he's capable of handing firearms safely. Stand at the counter of Turners and you can see 9 out of 10 handling guns shouldn't be.

(This wasn't what it used to be like, previous guys were very lax. I know they had at least one accidental discharge while people were down range with the previous safety guys.)

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I don't go over to the pistol range very often.

I'm ussually shooting 22LR on the rifle range. Seems us rifle shooters are much better at safety and policing ourselves then the pistol guys are. Probably because we're more mature and don't think we're Rambo when were carrying a 45.
 
If you're being mugged the bad guy isn't going to look away, and there's often more than one of them. That's also when they don't start out with an attack where your first sign is that the fight is already on. You can "what if" this to death and while there are a few situations where having a gun concealed gives a CCW holder a useful element of surprise, it's in the minority.

I've been teaching this topic for 17 years and have access to decades of data so I'm going off more than opinions. In the vast majority of cases it's either the fight is already on, or you have zero chance of drawing the gun while they're distracted. Generally speaking, you have to do something offensive/defensive to get to the gun. I still carry concealed all the time, but I'm realistic about how the most common scenarios happen and try to plan accordingly.

I think in maybe most cases being very effective at martial arts may be more usefull especially when at close quarters.

Being effective at martial arts may also indicate your good at fighting when under pressure. maybe the key to all this. Being able to work when under pressure
 
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