Wanting to get into CNC and exploring options.

[NatureBoy]

Hey guys, long time lurker, but newly joined member.

I will start this off with a little background on me, for it may help in shedding advice....maybe.

I have my paper in Manufacturing Engineering and worked in that field for a bit before branching off. My hobbies consist of cars and motorcycles, and making things for them when I feel I can do it better than odd the shelf parts, or for a drastically cheaper price.

So, with that little tidbit said, for better or worse, I am wanting to get a CNC mill to assist with my hobbies. This is where some advice would really help.

I have ran manual mills and lathes to make items, but I feel as if a CNC would assist greatly.

I have experience with designing items using CAD (SolidWorks, AutoCAD, Autodesk Inventor, Fusion 360, and ProE) as well as some CAM experience from years ago mainly with MasterCAM.

While I have SOME experience with CNC....I haven't truly ran one myself in about 10 years and even then, it was very basic.

So, my question to many more knowledgeable people out there; what would be a good HOBBY CNC mill be?

Because this will be for hobby use and not production, I do not want to spend a great amount of money because, well, there wont be much return.

As I have "shopped" for used machines throughout the years, I have decided that a machine the size of a Tormach 1100 would suffice for my needs. That being said, I consistently hear goods and bads of Tormach. Would I like a HAAS or similar? Yes, but again, that cost is too high for what I will be using it for. From what I have seen recently, I can get a Tormach 1100 from between $5k-$13k. Would I rather spend $5k over $13k? Yes, obviously.
Another feature that I would benefit from would be a 4th axis.

So, basically my needs of machine features would be:
-4th axis capable
-Coolant
-Minimum travel of: 18", 9.5", 16.25" (X, Y, Z)
-Be able to hold decent tolerance. You know, holes actually line up when stacked.

While I do not need an automatic tool changer, I would like to have a power assist at minimum.

I would like the machine to run on G-code and not a true proprietary language, for reasons of support.

So, advice on used machines? If its an older machine that needs repairs, are these easy repairs for a mechanically inclined person, but new to CNC machines? Basically, if I can get a better machine for the same price as another....let me know!! Would it be a true benefit to have a screen running the a program like PathPilot at the machine?

Thanks guys!

 

[michiganbuck]

Advice for a new guy:​

Don't pee on your shoes.
the better title "Choosing first CNC mill"

*You should go back and change the title.
I think for a short time you can click Edit and change it
Buck

 

[NatureBoy]

Advice for a new guy:​

Don't pee on your shoes.

Noted! Ill make sure to wear leather boots when I am not planning on doing any peeing but if it is in the daily plans, I will be sure to put rubber boots on that morning!

 

[michiganbuck]

Welcome to PM
but your thread may get locked for a poor title...that you can change

 

[NatureBoy]

Welcome to PM
but your thread may get locked for a poor title...that you can change

Will that work?

 

[DDoug]

Try over at the "zone"
www.cnc-zone.com

 

[Comatose]

It's a whole lot of work holding .0005 on my Brothers and Okumas. Neither 5k nor 13k is going to get you there. Recalibrate your expectations one way or another.

 

[NatureBoy]

It's a whole lot of work holding .0005 on my Brothers and Okumas. Neither 5k nor 13k is going to get you there. Recalibrate your expectations one way or another.

Edited list.

Appreciate the reply!

 

[michiganbuck]

I don't know much about CNC mills but the location is important. Michigan and Ohio are good /better machine markets and shipping is not terrible, so have a wide shopping area and you might do better.

6030 Fadal CNC Mill - heavy equipment - by owner - sale

Great 1997 Fadal CNC lightly used. Model 907 VMC 6030 HT 230/440VAC

detroit.craigslist.org

 

[beege]

Don't know how good Syil is, or even where to get them, but it's out there. I think your best value would be a used something or other.

 

[goldenfab]

FYI

Thread 'PRACTICAL MACHINIST RULES AND GUIDELINES' https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/practical-machinist-rules-and-guidelines.405758/

Note this is the is the Manufacturing Forum, not the home shop machinist forum. And while all levels of "how to" metalworking or woodworking questions regarding technique are welcome here, we are drawing the line at discussing manual "home shop grade" Asian machine tools and hand tools.

That's why the zone was recommended.
That being said if you have specific questions about accomplishing x there's a lot of people that will help you out provided talk of hobby grade stuff is kept to a minimum.

There's lots of threads like this. The advice usually seems to be recommending a used industrial grade machine over a new hobby grade machine. Not surprising considering the type of forum this is.

 

[Comatose]

Edited list.

Appreciate the reply!

I like this guy. Let's keep him.

 

[mzbg]

for hobbyist style work a prototrak would be a good machine closer to your price range. most of them are bridgeport style and can function that way as well, but are capable of taking standard g-code as well if you want to post out. I really liked running a DPM-5. Having run a tormach as well, the DPM-5 would beat the brakes off that thing.

 

[NatureBoy]

ok, guys! Sitting down at the computer now and actually taking some time to go through everything.

I completely understand all of the replies about going to another site for hobby info but I guess the root question that I have is:

What brand of production CNC mill would be advised to look at in the same price range as what I could get a Tormach for? I understand the rigidity aspect of bases, and spindles, and all of that.

So, while I cannot afford a new production level machine (which is what I meant by saying that I couldn't justify one), I am not opposed to getting an older one if it will walk circles around a hobby one.

Which ones have cheap parts to find? Fadal? Old HAAS?

Thank!

I will be doing some reading in the mean time.

 

[jhov]

I'd avoid the Tormach. They won't hold their value and will be difficult to sell because their customer base is limited to mostly hobbyists with deep pockets. There are a ton of other makes that'd fit the bill used: Brother, Fanuc Robodrill, Southwest Industries, Bridgeport, Milltronics, etc.. Plenty of decent machines go for $5-13k. Just make sure to budget for rigging, transport and tooling as well.

 

[goldenfab]

What are your shop constraints?
Door size to get it in and out? Ceiling height? Power available? Weight on floor concerns?

The Fadal manuals say the non VHT (very high torque spindle) can run on single phase if you swap the transformer, you give up some power though. I think I read some Haas machines can run on single phase too? Some machines may need a transformer to get the right voltage. I'm sure you know plenty of people use phase converts. Just something to consider for budgeting.

You said you want coolant but would mist lubrication suffice?

 

[NatureBoy]

What are your shop constraints?
Door size to get it in and out? Ceiling height? Power available? Weight on floor concerns?

The Fadal manuals say the non VHT (very high torque spindle) can run on single phase if you swap the transformer, you give up some power though. I think I read some Haas machines can run on single phase too? Some machines may need a transformer to get the right voltage. I'm sure you know plenty of people use phase converts. Just something to consider for budgeting.

You said you want coolant but would mist lubrication suffice?

So, as of right now, it would need to fit through a normal garage door.

My biggest concern with a production machine has been power. While 240v is easy to do, the 3 phase would be the "hard" part. Yes, I could use a phase converter but the efficiency would drop and my power bill would increase. Weird thing to consider? Well, if I was truly using this to make money, then it wouldn't be. Then we could get into solid state converters vs rotary and whatnot.

But, you are correct, these are all things to consider.

The larger issue, at this moment for me, is that I just do not know the machines. "power is power" and so I can figure that out....but machines arent equal. Some machines would be cheaper to restore, while others may be more expensive. Some machines may be easier to find parts for, while some machines may be more difficult. So, these are the issues/problems that I do not know the solutions to.

Hence the research, reading, and asking.

I appreciate everyones patience!

 

[wheelieking71]

I'm pretty sure older Brothers still have pretty good parts availability.
And they can be had at very attractive prices. Just know, that is because they have been "fully depreciated" (if you know what I mean).
Are you good at fixing stuff? You will need to be if you go the used route. Do you mind getting dirty? Old CNC's look clean on the outside. They are anything but clean when wrenching time comes!
And, almost anything is better than a tormach. A haas mini-mill would be a good starter. But, they hold their value "TOO" well.

 

[NatureBoy]

I'd avoid the Tormach. They won't hold their value and will be difficult to sell because their customer base is limited to mostly hobbyists with deep pockets. There are a ton of other makes that'd fit the bill used: Brother, Fanuc Robodrill, Southwest Industries, Bridgeport, Milltronics, etc.. Plenty of decent machines go for $5-13k. Just make sure to budget for rigging, transport and tooling as well.

Looking on ebay at machines that have sold, I have seen some machines go for around $6k that were between 1995-2000 models. That being said, the ads would say "functioning" or "ran until pulled"...but are there any 'usual' wear items from machines this old? Are the electronics something to pay attention to? I'm pretty mechanically inclined and so restoring the physical/mechanical parts shouldnt be an issue. But since I have never messed with these machines, I know that I know nothing about the electronics. Are some more reliable than others?

 

[wheelieking71]

So, as of right now, it would need to fit through a normal garage door.

My biggest concern with a production machine has been power. While 240v is easy to do, the 3 phase would be the "hard" part. Yes, I could use a phase converter but the efficiency would drop and my power bill would increase. Weird thing to consider? Well, if I was truly using this to make money, then it wouldn't be. Then we could get into solid state converters vs rotary and whatnot.

But, you are correct, these are all things to consider.

The larger issue, at this moment for me, is that I just do not know the machines. "power is power" and so I can figure that out....but machines arent equal. Some machines would be cheaper to restore, while others may be more expensive. Some machines may be easier to find parts for, while some machines may be more difficult. So, these are the issues/problems that I do not know the solutions to.

Hence the research, reading, and asking.

I appreciate everyones patience!

These machines don't use nearly as much power as the manufacturers and data-plates would lead you to believe. You arent going to be parking a 600mm horizontal in your garage.
There is nothing wrong with a Phase-Converter. I run my whole shop on a Phase-Perfect.