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What are the current dollar values of Antique Machinist tools?

You would lose out only if you were uninterested in them aside from as an investment. I use mine, and don't give a damn what anyone else does or thinks.

When I am gone, I will have gotten my enjoyment out of them, and if nobody else wants them, I won't care. They will be in good working order, barring floods etc, so it's someone else's choice.

If you would like to be remembered fondly, and your stuff considered valuable, you are in the wrong business, this "life" thing ain't for you. Once you are gone, it's like leaving an employer..... you are lucky if not too much is blamed on you.

And, even if they made statues of you in the park, like as not someone would come up with some bad detail of your life in 50 years, and off would go the statues to the warehouse or the scrapper.

Get used to it.
 
Initially i just wanted a lathe. i restore old motorcycles and bikes. BUT searching for one led me to the 1917 Walcott, which i bought for its amazing features for the day it was made. its worn some but its in reasonably accurate order. And its made in Michigan. which led me to the madness of hunting Michigan made machines. While i would love a modern shop of nice equipment, to obtain the features of my 80-100 year old high end machines would cost a fortune, and they will never be as cool to me anyway. What i have was top of the line in its day and class. And i like them. Value be damned. Its mine.
 
So you are 1 in 1000 that not on drugs and wants to learn a trade.. I mean this... my hat is off to you, now you get the other 999 in line would you please and save the country...Phil

Sorry if I am running this thread too far off topic.
I think older tools take on more value to younger people when they are associated with happy times and great experiences and great friends
Here are a couple of other links that feature young people at work and interested in vintage equipment even if they are a little off topic for this forum
http://www.pierregillard.com/articles/WilliamLEVACHER_EN.pdf
Pierre Gillard who was one of his instructors and also part of the DC3 project posted the story on his blog.
Passion Aviation
If you haven't seen them before you can see more links about the Plane Savers DC3 project mentioned in the article that I posted in post 5 & 6 of this thread where young people played a large part in the story mentored by so many people with years of experience.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...las-aircraft-1938-a-358107/?highlight=Douglas
This young fellow from the U.K. is certainly getting some great encouragement.
The Skymaster project is not just... - Save the Skymaster
It may not play too well if you aren't logged in to Facebook or perhaps it's just my slow internet connection .
Home - Save The Skymaster!

Jim

I have cynical moments, but there's still hope for the future. I think the biggest problem is when the world's falling apart and people sit around and do nothing. My dad put it that "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink..... but that doesn't mean you can't salt the hay!"
We all have our freedoms and can't stop people from doing stupid stuff, but we can still use our own freedom to promote something better. If it really is better, it'll catch on. OR if we truly are the 1 in a million who got it right, no amount of forcing people to do what's right is going to fix anything.

All that said, organizations like what Jim posted do a fantastic job of passing the historical torch IMO. We have a wing of the Confederate Air Force a couple miles up the road with a few WW2 planes and it's just awesome to see them flying over as they go to and from shows. Their big thing is selling rides as it funds their preservation, but it also is the most effective way to promote them. More than just reading about or looking at old planes, actually FLYING in them really grabs people's attention.

Another side of this too, I don't like telling other parents how to raise their kids, but IMO too many just "put up" with their kids until they realize they have a young adult in the house who's doing their own thing and doesn't care about what mom and dad want to pass on to them. Not saying I've got it all figured out! but I think as soon as that kid's hit the ground, parents should take every opportunity to teach and give them something to build on, rather than just leaving it to the coaches, teachers, and smart devices. It's such an awesome thing to watch my kids getting into cars and planes and building stuff. I catch myself sometimes because I don't want to be like the little-league parents deciding what great things their kid will do that they never got to do, but so much of it is either genetic or kids just wanting to be happy WITH their parents, I don't know why so many parents avoid it.

It would be cool if there was an organization to get kids into machining when young, both historically and practically, that wouldn't lead to child endangerment lawsuits, but keeping it at the family level is best IMO. Catching them young would ensure the future of the trade and history, but parents and grandparents rarely get the chance to re-do guiding their kids interests.

I'm already dog-earing tools for each of my kids, nieces and nephews. We've got more than enough sets of Micrometers, machinist chests, lathes, etc., but If I don't get down and play with the Legos NOW, build the pointless plywood creations, and pass on the garbage car parts for their young minds to play with.... it's all for nothing.
 
Rivett, the tool clubs still exist. Since you are from MO, I would guess you have been a member of MWTCA at some point? You might answer your question by attending the next annual meeting and talking to the members. I used to be in both MWTCA and EAIA, but currently I am just in the California-based club, PAST. We did not have any meetings during the last year, but I expect they will start again in a few months. The members are all greybeards, but we still have a lot of fun looking at the sales tables and swapping stories.

I have a good friend who has bought rare tools all his life, hasn't sold anything, and is 85. His shop is like a museum, but he isn't overly concerned. He got his enjoyment out of it during his life and when he is gone, the collection will go to his son and his wife. I like that attitude, i.e. collecting tools is not something we do to make a profit, its something we do because we like owning beautiful tools that have a history.
 
When told I had 6 months to live with cancer (still living happily past my expiration date 10 years later), I sold a bunch of tools.

One collection of micrometers went to fund an engineering scholarship. It was a win-win all around. I donated the tools, but ended up with a sort of catalog. The auction at an engineering conference funded a scholarship - it was a winner for the kid who won that. Ten years later, some of the buyers (some of them whip smart high school engineering interns at the time) still come up and tell me what a cool micrometer they bought. We let the buyers get whatever charitable donation there was (I didn't care, I wasn't going to be around). So, it spurred some interest in the next generation. A generous engineering software entrepreneur ended up buying the entire lot that didn't immediately sell - so he donated as well.

I suspect there would be 10x the interest in - and 10x the "value" of -- Rivett's collection if there were a catalog and his tools eventually found a venue to auction off his collection in the name of some cause near and dear to his heart. That, or devote an entire room of a museum to it.

To me, the real value of any tool isn't what some collector will pay for it, but what someone can do with it. These old tools can spur curiosity, teach history, demonstrate problem-solving and ingenuity throughout the industrial age and, in the Rivett case, celebrate a lifetime of pretty cool work.

Purely on the "what would they fetch at auction" basis, I suspect these tools will be subject to what's in and out of fashion. Today's baby boomers are among the most interested in industrial age mementos and among the wealthiest cohorts in history. When they're gone, it could be some other generations has equal or greater interest. Or, for the most part, not.

It would be "valuable" if these tools get a chance to speak for themselves for generations to come, perhaps the entire collection preserved in a catalog and the physical instances in interested hands or a museum collection.
 
It would be cool if there was an organization to get kids into machining when young, both historically and practically, that wouldn't lead to child endangerment lawsuits
There is.

I am helping to mentor a FIRST Robotics team at a local high school. They design (concept and CAD), cut metal (horizontal and vertical bandsaws, manual lathe, manual mill, drill press, CNC router and CNC laser cutter for sheet goods, Tormach CNC mill, about a dozen small FDM 3D printers), program, assemble, test and compete with the machines they build. Every year the FIRST organization runs a different competition, requiring design and construction of a different robot. Robots typically come in right at the weight limit of 125lb. Mobile, with both a (short) autonomous program and a (full competition) radio remote control. Multi-function: besides moving around, the robots typically have to do 4 or 5 other functions like gathering up and storing balls, shooting balls through hoops at various heights, navigating obstacles, physically moving the robot off the floor (last season, robots had to grab a swinging hang bar and lift themselves off the ground), etc. Successful robots have vision systems and other sensors, depending on the season's competition rules.

In addition to the engineering side of things, the team has a whole business side as well, doing fund raising, PR, public awareness, community liason, etc. The coach/instructor and the adult mentors definitely help with organization and infrastructure, but the students do the work. Most definitely including the engineering and the machining.

I can't keep track of all the TLAs, but in addition to FIRST, which takes place at the high school level, there are smaller-scale FTC and FRC programs and things like LegoBots for middle schoolers.
 
PeteM, that was a wonderful thing you did with your mic collection.

You mention a book/catalog sort of thing. That is something I have wanted to do for a number of reasons. To share, to let the future owner of the collections know there history, etc.

I have started this on a few different fronts. One is a data base inventory of the collections. Another is the history, good photographs, significants, story of acquiring it if interesting, etc. I have started this on my Instagram posts with What I call “Micrometer Friday’s”. My Instagram is wmrrobertsonminiatures Check out today, I posted the Victor S. M. Co.s. The important part of this is getting the information written down. It is also letting me study each piece again which is as much fun as buying them, well almost. Once I have these things documented I may offer it as a print on demand or some other type of book. I figure it will take a year or two of Fridays to cover the micrometer collection. I have done the last 7 weeks on Fridays plus a bunch of bench mics before that. Also rewrote the Palmer stuff.

I was thinking of posting that stuff here but the photo thing is just too much of a pain to get right.
 
. . . You mention a book/catalog sort of thing. That is something I have wanted to do for a number of reasons. . . ..

In my case, I was super sick at the time. So with the help of some engineering buddies we set things up this way. One who was pretty well known in engineering / academic circles would run the scholarship with a group of fellow engineering professionals. Another who ran one of the largest engineering conferences each year would run the auction. The deal for the scholarship winner was that he or she would take pictures of each tool in advance of the auction and catalog. My job was to stick a number on each tool, write a short description for each, and a suggested donation.

So, that's how a catalog of sorts was put together ahead of the auction. It was held at that engineering conference I used to speak at (which I wouldn't be able to return to for a three years while battling cancer). It was one of the more moving experiences in my life to show up around three years later (still pretty sick) and learn people weren't pissed off I'd lead them astray about the dying thing - happy to see me and all.

In your case you have a far more interesting and valuable collection and time to maybe turn it into a sort of historical narrative and teaching tool. Seems to me there are all sorts of cool things you could do to have those tools tell a story for decades and maybe centuries to come.

I had a friend who had a huge collection of engineering kits for kids - it filled a two car garage in Palo Alto. Think Tinkertoys, Erector Sets, Lincoln Logs, and the like - but with boxed varieties from all over the world.. Super smart guy, with a Nobel Prize in physics, and a great sense of both humor and empathy. The collection sort of mirrored his early interest in science and curiosity in how things work - all the way to contributing something of enduring value to science. Sadly, time passed him by and I'm not sure what has happened to that collection.
 
Pete, the National Museum of Toys and Miniatures (I live very close to it and features a lot of my work) has a changing exhibit gallery about 3000 square feet. The current exhibit filling it is STEM toys with a section aimed at STEM toys for girls. It is very cool. I’m sure a Nobel recipient had a great eye and that must have been a super nice collection.
 
Bill - I joined Instagram just to see your stuff. Seems it's an excellent way to document some of your collection. I like the depth of description you've added for the images. One hopes it stands the test of time.

First thing I got upon signing up was recommendations of where to start. Turns out it was easy enough to skip the #1 recommendation (Kim Kardashian) and get to your images. I'd recommend your posts to others. Be nice to see a culture where someone like "wmrrobertsonminiatures" was at the top of that Instagram list.
 
The facts - imho

Desirability, with rare exception, has always been driven by KNOWLEDGE.

Forty years ago I saw Stanley Plane and Patented Plane prices skyrocket by the printing of books by Sellens and Smith.

Later, Machinist Tools prospered by Ken Cope's books.

Today, Smith's gorgeous Books are readily available, and books concerning Stanley Tools are numerous. Prices remain high.

Cope's masterpieces are out-of-print. Despite their genius, they were always sparsely illustrated- with no color at all.

Hence the value of Machinist Tools are lackluster. But still more robust than I might expect.

I collect several genres.

One is Salem Witch Souvenirs. I live in Salem, and expect to donate my large collection to a prominent local museum.

The rare machinist tools ? I don't know.

I like them a great deal, but my local museum will spurn them, I am certain.

So where should they go ?
 
In my case, I was super sick at the time. So with the help of some engineering buddies we set things up this way. One who was pretty well known in engineering / academic circles would run the scholarship with a group of fellow engineering professionals. Another who ran one of the largest engineering conferences each year would run the auction. The deal for the scholarship winner was that he or she would take pictures of each tool in advance of the auction and catalog. My job was to stick a number on each tool, write a short description for each, and a suggested donation.

So, that's how a catalog of sorts was put together ahead of the auction. It was held at that engineering conference I used to speak at (which I wouldn't be able to return to for a three years while battling cancer). It was one of the more moving experiences in my life to show up around three years later (still pretty sick) and learn people weren't pissed off I'd lead them astray about the dying thing - happy to see me and all.

In your case you have a far more interesting and valuable collection and time to maybe turn it into a sort of historical narrative and teaching tool. Seems to me there are all sorts of cool things you could do to have those tools tell a story for decades and maybe centuries to come.

I had a friend who had a huge collection of engineering kits for kids - it filled a two car garage in Palo Alto. Think Tinkertoys, Erector Sets, Lincoln Logs, and the like - but with boxed varieties from all over the world.. Super smart guy, with a Nobel Prize in physics, and a great sense of both humor and empathy. The collection sort of mirrored his early interest in science and curiosity in how things work - all the way to contributing something of enduring value to science. Sadly, time passed him by and I'm not sure what has happened to that collection.

Too much history ends up here.

OIP.fWODiXnqXN8Q2P4ywJE5SgHaFm


Some of the worst stories of waste concern post-WWII. Enormous amounts of material was shoved off of Navy Ships right into the Sea, or crushed by Bulldozers and landfilled.

A co-worker told me of untold thousands of brand new, surplus, black rubber Winchester Brand Flashlights that were crushed and buried.
 
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If you bemoan the current generation without an attempt to convert you are just asking for obsolescence. Some of us actually do care and are willing to put the brain power in. Before you despair hit us up.
 
If you bemoan the current generation without an attempt to convert you are just asking for obsolescence. Some of us actually do care and are willing to put the brain power in. Before you despair hit us up.

Ken Cope's first machinist book hit the market at about $15.

At that price, many would-be collectors purchased it, and became serious collectors.

But today that book is out of print, and examples are $100 or more.

Who would pay that ?

So the market that Ken's book created has not expanded.
 
In some ways I have never understood the prices of antique tools. When I started to collect Stanley planes and primitive (wooden tools) were all the rage. Stanley went up and if it was wrapped in cardboard it went WAY UP, 5 to 10x. Ie, in the original box. Primitives crashed. No one cared about machinist tools which I thought were neat, so I started to collect them. Ken was driven to do his books because no one knew anything about this stuff unless they owned a good catalog collection and had a memory to know what was in the catalogs. So Ken did his books just as a wave of machinist tool collectors was cresting. Emil Pollack who published Ken’s books was very wise to know what was coming next and get in on it. He collected early American wooden planes.

As Salem states above, information is the key to all this stuff. Collectors have to be able to easily learn what they are buying and there has to be enough goods out there for a lot of collectors to buy. More and more these days you see people collecting Starrett stuff, lots of catalogs are out there, lots of product to buy. But many of those same people would not buy things by a lessor know company even though they are 100x more rare.

Back to what I said in the begining sometimes the prices of these tools make no sense.
 
. . .sometimes the prices of these tools make no sense.


Back when many of us took "economics" classes we were told that price and demand follow a neat curve. So, we expect rational prices. That might work in free and transparent markets, with a zillion buyers, lots of suppliers, and few barriers to entry. But in small markets, with a few sales venues, buyers, or sellers, the "no sense" thing happens a lot.

I've been fixing up microscopes for a kids' science program I started. As with many items (likely antique machine tools these days as well), the market for used examples is dominated by Ebay -- and prices set with Ebay being pretty much the main readily-available source of information (but only for asking prices and the last 30 days or so).

Some sellers are convinced that everyone else's listing should be their price, too. Even if that listing has been up for a year or two. And one or two brands can become popular well beyond the actual quality of the item itself - like Starrett in machine tools or Olympus in microscopes or Kim Kardashian branded stuff in anything.

The same thing happens on Bookfinder with somewhat rare books. One out-of-print title will have a half dozen sellers around $200. The title may sit for years. Another, arguably a better book, will have half a dozen sellers around $3.99 plus shipping -- but sometimes still not all that many takers.

I suspect it really does come down to both buyers and sellers thinking there is a win-win -- and that's a whole lot harder in markets with few transactions and heavy influence by a tiny group of sales venues (Ebay, Facebook . . .), few suppliers, and a few buyer/collectors or others driven by some fashion or collecting habit and (maybe) lots to spend.

Truly rare tools have few venues. First they were being brought to shows and auctions like Martin Donnelly. Today it's probably mostly Ebay, with maybe Facebook on the rise. Craigslist has intentionally made it difficult to search beyond local listings. Ebay drops price information after 30 days and also now hides the offered and accepted prices. Donnelly always tried to get the highest prices for his sellers. So, buyers end up thinking (in the rare item cases) - maybe I'm paying too much. It may put a damper on demand - unless there is some near-fanatical group looking for an time? Ken Cope helped ease some of that concern, I'd think.

They also have few suppliers - these are rare tools after all. The asking prices seem to range from "hold out for the highest possible price ever achieved" for someone with a little to a lot of knowledge to "it's a rusty tool - how about a dollar?"

And they have relatively few buyers - sometimes with relatively simplistic notions of what to buy either for use in their shop or to add to a collection. Sometimes just a handful of collectors with a bit of disposable income may dominate a market - but when they're gone, they're gone.

I'm not sure it will ever make sense. I do think the stories to be told and the lessons to be learned from our industrial heritage (as far back as the Antikythera mechanism - a story lost) are more valuable than collecting, say, old Coke bottles or Hummel figurines.
 
I think PeteM has said it pretty well. I know I fall into the “handful of collectors” but I’m not wealthy. Yes I will spend a lot on a tool but that money comes from the fact I drive a cheap car (base model Kia Sol). Many friends of mine have had a half dozen expensive pick-up trucks or sporty cars in the 40+ years I have been collecting. Those vehicles ended up with no or little value, I ended up with a fun and historic collection of objects I can relate too and think are pretty cool. Sort of to each his own, we all have different ideas of fun. One way to think about is a antique tool collection doesn’t get door dings in a parking lot. Btw, in my 20s I drove hot rod 67-68 Camaros all tricked out, big motors, trick paint and loud. I remember when I started to collect tools, you could only fit 3 machinists chests in the trunk of one.
 
There was a, thread here recently asking about the quality of Federal indicators. They sell for a fraction of the price out Starretr and other well known makes and LIIS refuses to service them with a long rant in the website calling them garbage.

The conclusion of everyone" the thread that had used them (myself included) was that Federal made nice, solid, smooth-acting, undervalued indicators.

Reference books don't seem to sell well these days, but if Adam Booth or Stefan Gottswinter made a youtube video extolling Federal indicators the prices would probably skyrocket.

People do make rational economic decisions based on what they value. It's just that the economic models most of us were taught in school don't reflect the value of emotional and social factors. 😁
 
I am working on an inventory of my collection which is a major task that I have been putting off for decades. Amazingly I kept records of my purchases going back nearly 40 years.

I’m curious what you all think these historic pieces are worth today? I’m not talking about just average old stuff but rare (only a few known to exist), historic (like the earliest micrometer or vernier caliper) or just plain cool looking some strange patented surface gage that never became popular.

The market place for these things has always been driven by a handful of collectors who will pay $100s or even $1000s for a single piece. What is the market today? My collecting has gone in different directions the past bunch of years so I don’t follow it much like I used to.

I’m interested more as curiosity, not because I plan on selling. Arrangements have been made for the collection with museums. To me the cost of the items has never been the driving factor in buying them. I often say I buy on average, some days I pay way too much, somedays I get things cheap. In the end I have a very complete collection. Surprisingly most I bought really cheap because years ago no one knew what this stuff was, like an 1877 B & S 1” mic for $10.

What brought this up was I just recorded about 70 surface gages, I did a check on eBay both current and past sales and of the 70 only 6 of the most common ones showed up. This stuff has always been pretty scarce, now it seems nearly impossible to find. But when it is found, does it bring in high dollars? I see every now and then good micrometers do very well, how about other tools?

Look forward to your thoughts.

Hello Bill, I know this is an old thread. It would be wonderful to see some of these surface gages in collection. I especially enjoy the shop made ones, as they tend to be fancier (maybe not be as practical) - of course beautify is in the eye of the beholder.

I've had it on my heart to make a surface gage for fun so getting some more design ideas would be most helpful. I may start another thread dedicated to early shop made surface gages so we can have a central thread to post pictures without hijacking yours.

Thanks, and Happy Holidays. Jake
 
Hi Jake, this is so funny, I don't check in here as often as I use to but just did. It seems my computer and this software don't like each other making posted photos a PITA. So I have switched of to IG @wmrobertsonminiatures or FB robertsonminiatures, I often post a few tools each week and need to do more surface gauges.
 








 
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