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Why do you like Orange Vise?

It is my one of two dislike's, but I am used to it now. I know my stock size and if I need to move it.

My other dislike is with the integrated Serra Jaws you are limited to stock size you can clamp onto, my original carriers were aluminum and now I have all cast iron and the positioning design changed and now I can't use them for stock under 2", which is actually incredibly annoying.

I've thought about ordering some Dura-Bar and making my own master jaws to make up for the inconvenience but haven't got around to it. I'd eliminate the dovetail jaw option as well. I've used them a handful of times but could do without.
Same, I could 100% do without the dovetailed side, if it meant more range. Would also be nice to have a smaller center jaw block to add more range.

I have mine in an HMC, and while they're nice when they fit the situation, I've found I have had to make way too many concessions and modifications than I thought I should, considering the price tag. Ease of use was the purpose of buying them, and I've had to drill holes in the sliding jaws to be able to access the brake, it's a pain in the @$$ to lock the lower(rear) jaw because the set screw is too close to the tombstone base. Maybe I'm just dumb, but I feel like I spend way too much time getting to the clamping result I originally planned. Or, I end up changing direction and making concessions.

Support from Orange has been OK, but usually the solutions are "We get around that problem by doing this workaround."

I just expected a little more of a refined product, for the $$
 
I absolutely love my 20" double and 17.5" single on my Speedio. I swap out jaws for odd work and swap in my pallets for production. I like the twin delta pallet jaws much more than the normal as swapping them out is far easier and repositions within tenths, my Y hasn't changed at all. I looked heavily at versatility when buying my vise as I knew Job shop/ production runs would be mixed. No other offered the versatility of Orange Vise Co. I have one pallet that is flat for gluing thin work to, several pallets for Op1 and some for Op2. Op1 uses Mitee Bite Pitbull and Op2 I mount with reverse impression and screws from the underside. Machine some bores for WCS and its fast.
 
We just bought two sets of dove tail hard jaws for the orange vise so we could swap between the carve smart stock and roughing jaws. The jaws themselves are flat, but it looks like the dovetail slot on the Orange vise isn't flat at all. We're seeing a 003 variance when we sweep the dovetail slot.
 
When I originally posted this thread I was hoping there was something magical that I might have missed. Well, we gave them a chance but we're just not happy with Orange. Anybody know the best place to pick up some Kurts?

Having to flip all the jaws for this single part in order to use our outside jaws took so much time. I think this really was the ahah moment.

View attachment IMG_2320.jpg

Here's what hasn't worked for us:

1. Requires a lot of extra effort to reconfigure the vises. Sucks when you have to tear down a jaw to move the jaw outside of the carrier.
2. Lots of extra parts: set screws, jack screws, hard to reach screws.
3. Dovetails are not flat. We bought two sets of Carvesmart combo jaws hoping to reduce setup time but we can only use them on op1.
4. Fixed jaws are located by floating pins so we have to resweep the fixed jaw every time we unclamp a part. More setup time.
5. Vise jaws, both fixed and movable are not flat. We mic'd all 6 jaws and they were all over the place.
6. No easy way to carry the vise when loading/unloading.

I'll be throwing these three vises up Craiglist if anybody is interested in the Bay Area!
 
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When I originally posted this thread I was hoping there was something magical that I might have missed. Well, we gave them a chance but we're just not happy with Orange. Anybody know the best place to pick up some Kurts?

Having to flip all the jaws for this single part in order to use our outside jaws took so much time. I think this really was the ahah moment.

View attachment 418259

Here's what hasn't worked for us:

1. Requires a lot of extra effort to reconfigure the vises. Sucks when you have to tear down a jaw to move the jaw outside of the carrier.
2. Lots of extra parts: set screws, jack screws, hard to reach screws.
3. Dovetails are not flat. We bought two sets of Carvesmart combo jaws hoping to reduce setup time but we can only use them on op1.
4. Fixed jaws are located by floating pins so we have to resweep the fixed jaw every time we unclamp a part. More setup time.
5. Vise jaws, both fixed and movable are not flat. We mic'd all 6 jaws and they were all over the place.
6. No easy way to carry the vise when loading/unloading.

I'll be throwing these three vises up Craiglist if anybody is interested in the Bay Area!
You know our products are backed by a lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects, right?

Your vises appear to be a mixed bag. The two on the left with no black oxide coating on the main screws are quite a few years old. 2016 era? Improvements have been made to our manufacturing since then. We no longer facemill the jaw faces and instead use repeated passes with a necked endmill, which adds cycle time but nails the geometry by eliminating Z-deflection and Y drift in our horizontal machining centers. We also happen to make the necked endmill in our own CNC tool grinder, so they're completely tailored to our requirements for this specific application.

We don't grind the jaw faces because it would throw off the distance of the jaw face to the dowel pin locations. We machine the bottoms of the jaws and the jaw faces in the same setup on an HMC to maintain geometric tolerance.

The gripper slot on our sliding jaws, which was added a few years ago, largely eliminates the need for outboard jaws when doing plate work. The ability to use outboard jaws is there for some situations, but grippers are the better solution. Your vises don't have those slots, but they're easy to add yourself. 1/2" wide x .187" deep, with a series of 10-32 holes tapped on 1/2" spacing.

Sorry to hear you're going to a different brand. We can't win em all. The lifetime warranty will transfer to the next guy who picks up these vises.
 
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I'll be throwing these three vises up Craiglist if anybody is interested in the Bay Area!

They say there's no such thing as bad publicity and your dissatisfaction made me finally take a look at Orange vises, including all the oldest stuff I could find. I've come away kind of impressed and wishing my Kurt 3600s were in good enough shape to offer a trade / cash deal with you. I'm down in LA and not at all allergic to driving up there but, I need more vises like a hole in the head.

Which Kurt vises are you considering? Everything you said you don't like about your current vises is there because you can configure them so many different ways.

In case you're looking at the 3600 series (the ground sides) but, haven't actually used them: they're shorter travel than the much more common D688 vises everyone is used to. I can't remember the travel compared to the D675 but I think it too has more travel. So the 3600s can be flipped on their side but, they are also limiting in how wide they open. I think the DX6 is the newest incarnation of the D688.

I was doing plate work like you have pictured. The first part I cut was in a D688, no problem but, the part was hanging off both sides. In an effort to reduce chatter, I decided on two vises and assumed I could load two 3600s and do the same. Not a chance. I had to make 2" aluminum block spacers to hang off the back of the 3600s to hold the same part. I've had to use those spacers a number of times since.

You know the fixed jaw isn't coming off the 3600 so there's no configuring it as a dual station, or making your own deep replacement jaws or anything else. It's a Kurt and it will do Kurt things and that's it. Maybe that's what you want. I don't know.
 
You know our products are backed by a lifetime warranty against manufacturing defects, right?

Your vises appear to be a mixed bag. The two on the left with no black oxide coating on the main screws are quite a few years old. 2016 era? Improvements have been made to our manufacturing since then. We no longer facemill the jaw faces and instead use repeated passes with a necked endmill, which adds cycle time but nails the geometry by eliminating Z-deflection and Y drift in our horizontal machining centers. We also happen to make the necked endmill in our own CNC tool grinder, so they're completely tailored to our requirements for this specific application.

We don't grind the jaw faces because it would throw off the distance of the jaw face to the dowel pin locations. We machine the bottoms of the jaws and the jaw faces in the same setup on an HMC to maintain geometric tolerance.

The gripper slot on our sliding jaws, which was added a few years ago, largely eliminates the need for outboard jaws when doing plate work. The ability to use outboard jaws is there for some situations, but grippers are the better solution. Your vises don't have those slots, but they're easy to add yourself. 1/2" wide x .187" deep, with a series of 10-32 holes tapped on 1/2" spacing.

Sorry to hear you're going to a different brand. We can't win em all. The lifetime warranty will transfer to the next guy who picks up these vises.

Yes I am aware of the warranty, but based on your reply can you clarify what a manufacturing defect vs a manufacturing improvement would be. For example, the jaws are not square and the dovetail interface isn't parallel to the floor. Where would these fall?

Expanding on your statement about manufacturing improvements, if I had the comparable latest and greatest 2023-2024 model year Orange Vise how many of the six items would no longer be a factor?

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the insight.
 
They say there's no such thing as bad publicity and your dissatisfaction made me finally take a look at Orange vises, including all the oldest stuff I could find. I've come away kind of impressed and wishing my Kurt 3600s were in good enough shape to offer a trade / cash deal with you. I'm down in LA and not at all allergic to driving up there but, I need more vises like a hole in the head.

Which Kurt vises are you considering? Everything you said you don't like about your current vises is there because you can configure them so many different ways.

In case you're looking at the 3600 series (the ground sides) but, haven't actually used them: they're shorter travel than the much more common D688 vises everyone is used to. I can't remember the travel compared to the D675 but I think it too has more travel. So the 3600s can be flipped on their side but, they are also limiting in how wide they open. I think the DX6 is the newest incarnation of the D688.

I was doing plate work like you have pictured. The first part I cut was in a D688, no problem but, the part was hanging off both sides. In an effort to reduce chatter, I decided on two vises and assumed I could load two 3600s and do the same. Not a chance. I had to make 2" aluminum block spacers to hang off the back of the 3600s to hold the same part. I've had to use those spacers a number of times since.

You know the fixed jaw isn't coming off the 3600 so there's no configuring it as a dual station, or making your own deep replacement jaws or anything else. It's a Kurt and it will do Kurt things and that's it. Maybe that's what you want. I don't know.

Different strokes for different folks. I heard nothing but good things about these, that's why I was willing to give them a try. And, I think we did approach everything without bias.

Currently looking at the HDM690 which is about 1.3k with the Carvesmart master jaws. Also interested in the new TL6CS dual station with Carvesmart. Watching the configuration and tear down video it looks interesting but I haven't seen much feedback on them. The 11-12" capacity is pretty cool. We may buy one and demo it before fully investing in the ecosystem. Money is tight and margins are always shrinking so it's even more painful taking a leap of faith and dropping thousands only to realize that you may have made the wrong call.

We are not a huge production shop. Mostly prototype work, so there's a lot of variety. It took about an hour to setup the pictured plate work, not including the time to cut the raised jaws.
 
@Orange Vise
This is gonna be a long one! :
I'll start out by saying I have had some issues with Orange, back and forth with Eric a couple times...So I'm not a fan boy, or drank the cool aide, with that preface.
I still buy them, and always will.

We have 10 orange double vises, and the material and build quality is awesome, tolerancing some times not so much.

They are extremely versatile, seems some of the the comments, people aren't being very versatile with them.

We only run Carvesmart dovetail jaws, there expensive but fast, and we can make monolithic jaws that span through multiple vises, spaced at different dimensions and positions in X, and the jaws can go in any machine because of this.

All our bite jaws are the Carvesmart Serra jaws, I have even designed and had Serra jaw make me batches of custom bite rails that allow multiple parts per jaw with stops, in both Serra bolt and Orange boot pattern spacing.

We have made from the solid bolt on center jaw Orange sells, we added a Serra rail slot in either side of it also(.125" from face), so we can do larger parts by not adding the extra .75" of each Carvesmart jaw, and reverse the floating jaws to rails inside. gives you ability to do parts 1.5"+ larger than standard.

We do use the 2 outer bite rails for grabbing large plates, we also use the vice base 1/2-13 holes for adding bolts with rubber or plastic heads, that we use to add tension to large plates as to reduce vibration and chatter.

I have redesigned the brake to be set and released from the back of the vises, we have manufactured a couple dozen so we no longer have to remove the floating jaw, or as mentioned some people have drill through for a horizontal mill application where you need the brake a lot.

Because people don't like the brake setting procedure of having to take off the jaw, they don't use, most take it off (I've heard), it is so much easier to put tight tolerance parts in against their stop with having the brake timing the closing of the vises in order.

Dovetail jaws also index back into the vise with greater accuracy than a bolt on jaw, you cannot guarantee vertical, horizontal, rotational alignment with a bolt on jaw, unless your willing to add alignment pins to the system.

Orange double vises are only $2000, when I looked for better toleranced/precision to switch to, they were all around $4000 for something I considered better, not equal. So I stayed, and will stay with Orange.

Only thing I would change on these vises with the mass of versatility they have and we actually utilize, unlike some, is the built in bite rail should only be cut back in .125" like a Carvesmart Serra jaw, it allows you to get closer to the edge when drilling through holes.
And adopting the brake I designed so that it can quickly and easily be set and released from the back opening, without having to remove the floating jaw carrier.

Yes the rail cut outs with all the little screw holes load up with chips if there isn't a rail in them, If people, or Eric wants I can make an injection mold and design/engineer a snap in rail that sits flush to the jaw covering all the holes,
or you have a machine, machine one.
I have thought of making another one for the center jaw that has all the mounting holes, these collect chips and coolant that blow up in your face when aired off.

And not to mention using the Aluminum pallets, we haven't used yet, but we do have some of the solid Aluminum center and carrier sets that are awesome for larger complex mounting solutions.

If your not getting what I'm getting out of them, it sounds more like your just not doing all the versatile things we do, and can with these vices.

You keep mak'n um, I'll keep buy'n um!

2 Cents :cheers:
 
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yeah if I made a Youboob video of all these Orange Dbl vises can do, and I do with them, you wouldn't be talkin about a Kurt vise.
If you want versatility, and willing to pay over double for it, this was my second choice.
 
4. Fixed jaws are located by floating pins so we have to resweep the fixed jaw every time we unclamp a part. More setup time.
Can you expand a bit on this? I have never touched one of these vises. From what I see, there are two dowel pins that go into the top rail. I assume these are a snug sliding fit in both the rail and the fixed jaw. Then the top jaw goes on and then the set screw at the back is tightened. I assume it's the set screw doing the downward force to lock the jaw in place? Where is the movement?
 
Can you expand a bit on this? I have never touched one of these vises. From what I see, there are two dowel pins that go into the top rail. I assume these are a snug sliding fit in both the rail and the fixed jaw. Then the top jaw goes on and then the set screw at the back is tightened. I assume it's the set screw doing the downward force to lock the jaw in place? Where is the movement?
He can expand also, but, there isn't.
 
Currently looking at the HDM690 which is about 1.3k with the Carvesmart master jaws.
Jeebus, Kurt has another 6" vise that isn't the DX6? I can't keep up. Okay, looks like a solid, basic 6" vise. At the risk of making a bad pun, it's apples and Oranges though. You aren't satisfied because of all the extra features that you intentionally bought.

The inevitable reality is that you might need/want both types of vises.

Also interested in the new TL6CS dual station with Carvesmart.
Okay, another variation on the Kurt design. Seems like a nice option, though here's what I see: a flat rail and screw clamping system much like what you already own. It has top jaws of a different design. I'm not knocking either product but, you have what you have soo...

Why don't you make some top jaws that are the way you want them? Keep the rails fastened to the machine. Snap the jaw carriers on and off as needed.
 
Another plus to Orange, they make the base in different lengths, I have a 16 length in a mini mill, a 17.5 length in a larger mini mill, and then another 20 length in the rest of the standard size machines, but they all can fit the same stuff.
 
Different strokes for different folks. I heard nothing but good things about these, that's why I was willing to give them a try. And, I think we did approach everything without bias.

Currently looking at the HDM690 which is about 1.3k with the Carvesmart master jaws. Also interested in the new TL6CS dual station with Carvesmart. Watching the configuration and tear down video it looks interesting but I haven't seen much feedback on them. The 11-12" capacity is pretty cool. We may buy one and demo it before fully investing in the ecosystem. Money is tight and margins are always shrinking so it's even more painful taking a leap of faith and dropping thousands only to realize that you may have made the wrong call.

We are not a huge production shop. Mostly prototype work, so there's a lot of variety. It took about an hour to setup the pictured plate work, not including the time to cut the raised jaws.
You said flipping the Orange so the bolt on's were on the outside was the last straw,
But then your looking at vises that are Carvesmart? I'm confused:nutter:
Also just to point this out to you or others who don't know, you cant put Carvesmart jaws in the vise on the outsides, they do not work backwards, you will just rip them out of their pockets.
So with this, you will have exactly the same setup, Carvesmart inside, bolt on out side, but I don't think Kurt's are flippable, are they? Sounds like you going backwards, or down grading versatility.
Just sayin.:D
 
Let's pretend that you put a stupid price on those vises that I can't refuse. Storage-be-damned, I drive up to get them. A week later, this is what would happen to your old vises as you were buying Kurts:

1. Requires a lot of extra effort to reconfigure the vises. Sucks when you have to tear down a jaw to move the jaw outside of the carrier.
The three vise, reversed jaws setup in one of your pictures would probably take an hour with Kurts too. I don't see a difference. The jaw screws pointing inward on the Kurt is fiddly and takes time. Removing all the top hardware to hold a part flat is because I/you paid for those features. It's just as easy to argue to leave that hardware off until you need it, or have more jaw carriers that stay naked.

2. Lots of extra parts: set screws, jack screws, hard to reach screws.
The only thing I can think of here is the set screw under the jaw carriers and the third-hand adjustment. Everything else is related to claws, jaws and other add-ons. Make / buy jaw carriers as plain as you want. For daily use, I'd buy or make jaw carriers for regular old Kurt-style Monster Jaws because I'm cheap.

The third hand adjustment is for dual-station setup and being upright in a horizontal mill. You have to juggle two parts and try to tighten the clamping screw while fighting gravity. Or maybe a dual-station laying on its side in your vertical. That adjustment gives you a chance to snug up the first part and hold it while you load the second. Ignore if you don't need it.

As for the carrier jaw hold-down screws, Kurt uses a carrier set screw too so it's a wash.

3. Dovetails are not flat. We bought two sets of Carvesmart combo jaws hoping to reduce setup time but we can only use them on op1.
I'm guessing this means not parallel to the bottom surface? By how much? I'd look into carefully fixturing them and skimming those surfaces until they were straight and matched one another.

Without getting into the weeds, Chick and likely other brands have these challenges too. Production tolerances stack up more than I'd like. I can't just grab any top plate, any vise body and any set of Chick jaws and have the stack-up be the same if I'm chasing less than 0.005" tolerance.

4. Fixed jaws are located by floating pins so we have to resweep the fixed jaw every time we unclamp a part. More setup time.
If the dowels are loose for some reason and the jaw is actually moving, I'd buy some expanding pins from Miteebite. They sell them in 1/2" diameter. Whichever has the sloppiest hole (carrier or base) would get the expanding side of the dowel.

5. Vise jaws, both fixed and movable are not flat. We mic'd all 6 jaws and they were all over the place.
Verify that the vise body rails are all the same height. Face cut all of the jaw tops until they match (if it matters). Surface grind if you have it available. Kurt (and I'm sure others) will provide matched sets if you order them all at once. Spread across purchases, all bets are off (even Kurt). Unfortunately they're vises, not gauge blocks. Heck, I only recently discovered that a few of my 123 blocks are off by a thou or more in one or more dimensions. I have to keep them separate from the "good ones" now.

6. No easy way to carry the vise when loading/unloading.
This is something I never considered but, yeah, that's a day-to-day annoyance I guess. From a management / nanny-state standpoint: people shouldn't be grunting and moving around 100 pound fixtures, especially at that reach into the machine. OSHA guidelines and Mil Specs for one-man lift are well below that number. I think all of them are less than that weight by half so this isn't even close. Keep that in mind if you have employees and worker's comp insurance.

With that said, this is what hydraulic lift carts are for. I don't know how the current flavor of Harbor Fright lift tables perform but, I bought the thousand pound model 18 years ago and it still works fine. It's the only way to get the rotary in and out of my machine. I'd use it for those vises too. Back pain sucks. $250-370 will buy you the HF table and save that.

Even at a stupid price, I couldn't use your vises because I'm heavily invested in the Chick ecosystem. Chick overlaps the functions of your Oranges and has similar challenges and advantages. Additionally: the Orange vises are imperial hole spacing and the Chick foundation is metric spacing. There's no good way for me to mix the two. I'm not telling you what to do but, that's what I would do to suit my own style and preferences.
 
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