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Why do you like Orange Vise?

I guess different strokes also, I don't remove vises, EVER!
Large plate work fits in the work envelope of the vices, vises span the entire table.
if not, or second OP, I make a plate large enough for the part, if needed with a rail/s on the bottom to grab onto with the vises, almost never needed..
I don't understand the slow ass pulling the vises off the table thing, or the dinging and scratching the shit out of the table taking them off and on,
or the super time consuming dialing them all back in....
I don't get it, super inefficient, I see no pluses.
 
IME, most older machinists who’ve already effed up their back have a block or two in their toolbox fitted with a lift eye. Clamp it in the vise and hook to the hoist of choice in the shop.
I'll tell you what, if I worked at a shop without a lift, I wouldn't even take the job!
these vises have 1/2-13 bolt holes everywhere also, so you could use necked eye bolts as well.
 
I guess different strokes also, I don't remove vises, EVER!
Large plate work fits in the work envelope of the vices, vises span the entire table.
Are you familiar with the Chick System 5 stuff? It's both brilliant and infuriating, demonstrating that there is no perfect answer. The logic: you install their foundation plate. It's drilled and doweled on a 50mm grid. All their M-system and System 5 vises and hardware install anywhere, in either direction. It's all repeatable. They sell expanding round and diamond pins to locate the vises or other fixtures.

The vises are single or dual station, in addition to being set up for removable pallets. They also advertise soft machinable blocks that screw right to the table, on that grid, same round and diamond pins, etc.

In theory the system would be ultimately configurable. You can choose to install 50mm, 100mm or 150mm wide vises, have them with removable jaws that snap on and off. You can design crazy, multi-vise setups and the whole thing will break down in no time, leaving you to reconfigure the machine for the next job. Document the setup and it can be repeated (claimed to 0.001 or better) in the time it takes to drop each vise onto pins and install two screws.

In practice: the vises have very limited travel. While well-suited to production, they don't work at all as general vises (like a Kurt). They're awesome if you're using their soft jaws but, those are expensive.

The System 5 vises can be stacked right next to one another but, the design of the hold-down claw and pocket makes it a real challenge for mortals to make their own. M-System vises use more basic round pins to hold the moving jaws but, now you can't remove the jaws if the vises are stacked close to one-another: the pin can't slide out.

Chick introduced their OneLok line to be more like conventional style vises. A great addition to the System 5 stuff? Nope. It features metric spaced locating dowels but, now you need to use toe clamps to hold each down. There are no integral screw holes. That negates the advantage of having the grid foundation.

I worked around this by figuring out where Kurt 3600s need to be drilled for dowel holes. The Kurts can drop on the table as needed, or the Chicks. Luckily the center slots on the 3600 vises was close enough to 50mm to allow those to be used.

The foundation is still a bit of a hassle as the clamping features on the Haas rotaries don't play well with the grid spacing. Haas anticipated being bolted to t-slots, not a grid. Some other general fixtures (manual indexers, 5C holders, chucks) also don't play well with the grid. Adapter plates work but, eat up Z clearance. Sometimes a problem, sometimes not.
 
Are you familiar with the Chick System 5 stuff? It's both brilliant and infuriating, demonstrating that there is no perfect answer. The logic: you install their foundation plate. It's drilled and doweled on a 50mm grid. All their M-system and System 5 vises and hardware install anywhere, in either direction. It's all repeatable. They sell expanding round and diamond pins to locate the vises or other fixtures.

The vises are single or dual station, in addition to being set up for removable pallets. They also advertise soft machinable blocks that screw right to the table, on that grid, same round and diamond pins, etc.

In theory the system would be ultimately configurable. You can choose to install 50mm, 100mm or 150mm wide vises, have them with removable jaws that snap on and off. You can design crazy, multi-vise setups and the whole thing will break down in no time, leaving you to reconfigure the machine for the next job. Document the setup and it can be repeated (claimed to 0.001 or better) in the time it takes to drop each vise onto pins and install two screws.

In practice: the vises have very limited travel. While well-suited to production, they don't work at all as general vises (like a Kurt). They're awesome if you're using their soft jaws but, those are expensive.

The System 5 vises can be stacked right next to one another but, the design of the hold-down claw and pocket makes it a real challenge for mortals to make their own. M-System vises use more basic round pins to hold the moving jaws but, now you can't remove the jaws if the vises are stacked close to one-another: the pin can't slide out.

Chick introduced their OneLok line to be more like conventional style vises. A great addition to the System 5 stuff? Nope. It features metric spaced locating dowels but, now you need to use toe clamps to hold each down. There are no integral screw holes. That negates the advantage of having the grid foundation.

I worked around this by figuring out where Kurt 3600s need to be drilled for dowel holes. The Kurts can drop on the table as needed, or the Chicks. Luckily the center slots on the 3600 vises was close enough to 50mm to allow those to be used.

The foundation is still a bit of a hassle as the clamping features on the Haas rotaries don't play well with the grid spacing. Haas anticipated being bolted to t-slots, not a grid. Some other general fixtures (manual indexers, 5C holders, chucks) also don't play well with the grid. Adapter plates work but, eat up Z clearance. Sometimes a problem, sometimes not.
I've seen the Chick but never looked into them much other than price, another expensive system that I skipped.
Yeah this type of system works well enough, but I would never take my vises on and off unless, like in your case you have a sub plate system, that's what their for.
It adds another form of versatility, but vises on the raw machine table, taking them off and on, NOPE!
I definitely could see having a grided sub plate and fixturing that was modular to it, but at the same, time you do still take the time to take it off and on.
I have never needed in 15 years, to take my vises off, so to me, its a waste of time, and a fault point.
Even our 4th axis had a block to mount it to the vise.
But then again its because my systems have been modified to maximize the efficiency for which I use, so with that I have no use to take them off.
 
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But then again its because my systems have been modified to maximize the efficiency for which I use, so with that I have no use to take them off.
Just playing devil's advocate here since you're also a horizontal and pallet-pool guy. The Chick vise stuff is also interchangeable with their line of tombstones.

Say you had a job for 5,000 3-axis parts and you want maximum production. You load your dual or pallet pool machine with two Chick tombstones, load it with parts and away you go.

Three months later, they come back and want 500 more parts. Or it will be seasonal small orders after filling the pipeline with the first large purchase. Maybe not enough to interrupt what you have on the horizontal but, you have a three axis doing nothing in the corner. Take Chick vises of the same size, plop the same jaws in those and you're running again.

Or parts mix: my goal is to keep an entire end-item product on the machine instead of having to do batches and keep counts. Not Just in time manufacturing but, still at a point where inventory is always approximately equal. What I don't want is having to batch, store and handle parts while in-process. One cycle = one saleable assembly. BTW: this goes along with your dream of one-man-business and keeping spindles turning.

That assembly might include 1-2 parts that need a 150mm (6") vise, two-ops. It may also have four more little parts also wanting two-ops. Not enough to get all of those in the machine if everything was 150mm vises. Big jaws would also be expensive. Install one 150mm and four of the 50mm vises and program away. Pictures to document the setup. Pack the jaws away in a plastic tub. It can repeat any time when needed, right out of the tub and a binder of setup and work instructions.
 
Just playing devil's advocate here since you're also a horizontal and pallet-pool guy. The Chick vise stuff is also interchangeable with their line of tombstones.

Say you had a job for 5,000 3-axis parts and you want maximum production. You load your dual or pallet pool machine with two Chick tombstones, load it with parts and away you go.

Three months later, they come back and want 500 more parts. Or it will be seasonal small orders after filling the pipeline with the first large purchase. Maybe not enough to interrupt what you have on the horizontal but, you have a three axis doing nothing in the corner. Take Chick vises of the same size, plop the same jaws in those and you're running again.

Or parts mix: my goal is to keep an entire end-item product on the machine instead of having to do batches and keep counts. Not Just in time manufacturing but, still at a point where inventory is always approximately equal. What I don't want is having to batch, store and handle parts while in-process. One cycle = one saleable assembly. BTW: this goes along with your dream of one-man-business and keeping spindles turning.

That assembly might include 1-2 parts that need a 150mm (6") vise, two-ops. It may also have four more little parts also wanting two-ops. Not enough to get all of those in the machine if everything was 150mm vises. Big jaws would also be expensive. Install one 150mm and four of the 50mm vises and program away. Pictures to document the setup. Pack the jaws away in a plastic tub. It can repeat any time when needed, right out of the tub and a binder of setup and work instructions.
Oh for sure, If I was doing this it wouldn't be with 6" dbl vises though, It would be with the Erowa/Triag systems I mentioned in a earlier post on this thread.
and we don't want to start the thread of the batch processing vs single through part, people have their opinions.

As you know I like doing my manufacturing engineering, So I like to actually test systems for their metrics, not just an guess and opinion,
We found that batch processing is faster, and less prone to error, programming is quicker, ....as a simple example, there are on average far more tool changes for one in one out processing, just as a for instance.

I think the biggest place we are going to need to look at versatility, is when we get a 5 axis, probably next year if economy doesn't tank, which it should. :D
 
I guess different strokes also, I don't remove vises, EVER!
Large plate work fits in the work envelope of the vices, vises span the entire table.
if not, or second OP, I make a plate large enough for the part, if needed with a rail/s on the bottom to grab onto with the vises, almost never needed..
I don't understand the slow ass pulling the vises off the table thing, or the dinging and scratching the shit out of the table taking them off and on,
or the super time consuming dialing them all back in....
I don't get it, super inefficient, I see no pluses.
dont need to dial them in if you have a subplate :P
 
What quantity of parts do you job shop guys do in vises before you throw a fixture together?

The concept of leaving vises on the table is strange to me. I rarely use vises for anything. I design my parts and the fixtures to machine them at the same time. Drop the fixtures on, key in the offsets, load a couple tools and cycle start.

I have a box of 20 or so sets of 6" vise soft jaws I bought pre-pandemic. I've used 4 sets in that time.

To me, anything that fits in a vise is a short cycle time part. I can make a high density fixture from plate and get a decent cycle time so I'm not tending the machine continuously. I really like to do a quick and dirty 1st op on a plate fixture then into a fixture in the 4th or HMC. I like 30 minute+ cycle times.

I do a lot of plate work and if I did it on top of vises I feel it would be very slow or garbage finish/parallelism.

Is the love of vises mostly for the flexibility aspect where you rarely make the same parts again?
 
Can you expand a bit on this? I have never touched one of these vises. From what I see, there are two dowel pins that go into the top rail. I assume these are a snug sliding fit in both the rail and the fixed jaw. Then the top jaw goes on and then the set screw at the back is tightened. I assume it's the set screw doing the downward force to lock the jaw in place? Where is the movement?

I can try. Yeah, what you have said is correct. The pins themself have some movement and because the jaw isn't actually fixed we are seeing movement if we tighten/loosen/retighten a part. I can try to get some photos or video next tiem I'm at the shop
 
What quantity of parts do you job shop guys do in vises before you throw a fixture together?
Now that you mention it like this, I guess it does have a high dependence on differing aspects. I don't look at the quantity really, unless its small. or really big numbers, but that's relative.

The concept of leaving vises on the table is strange to me. I rarely use vises for anything. I design my parts and the fixtures to machine them at the same time. Drop the fixtures on, key in the offsets, load a couple tools and cycle start.
See I design my parts key offsets, load a couple tools, cycle start, I don't have to build a fixture,that's extremely time consuming.
That cost of materials, and time is gone for me, (except when I build a fixture)BUT depending on the part size/density and quantity, a fixture will get the order done quicker after the first time because of tool changes and clean out time.
If you were a low quantity high mix job shop, and not production, making fixtures all the time would be a negative on average.
To me, anything that fits in a vise is a short cycle time part. I can make a high density fixture from plate and get a decent cycle time so I'm not tending the machine continuously. I really like to do a quick and dirty 1st op on a plate fixture then into a fixture in the 4th or HMC. I like 30 minute+ cycle times.
A lot of the parts we do in vises would not have a high gain switching to a fixture, as in instead of 6 parts you would get 8, or along those lines.
you really need to do both a lot to tell what direction to go vise or fixture, each part is different.
I do a lot of plate work and if I did it on top of vises I feel it would be very slow or garbage finish/parallelism.
You machine jaws in the machine to hold a fixture plate that's machined flat, and load your thin plate work on it. And to tell you the truth I don't do big flat plate work, but if I did, and we were supposed to, I would buy a machine just for that work, and it wouldn't have vises in it. Something like , but not, a Haas GR. I would rather have full size plates delivered and loaded into a gantry machine, and get rid of the cost and time waiting for plate to be cut, done this before also. Most our plate work we get though doesn't need to be flat either, its just cutting shapes and chamfering things for cosmetics, no machining in the Z really, and to no tight tolerances either.

edit: also I guess because of my business model, as people have mentioned, "I have to take my vises off for differing parts" I would definitely not do this, for my business model, I would just buy another machine dedicated to that type of work, truthfully, machines are cheap.

Is the love of vises mostly for the flexibility aspect where you rarely make the same parts again?
The vise does really give you speed and flexibility, especially like you said, you like to make a fixture fit more parts, longer cycles.
I still make fixtures sometimes also if it fits better for the scenario,
I make them in the vises though, and they are held in with vises, I don't pull the vises off, and mount the fixture on the table.

Also with all this their also is a main thing to consider also, let alone part size/quantity,
what is your business model?

We have heard all too often "machine shops over promise under deliver" and "are parts arent correct even afterwards"
So personally in my shop, its all about not doing this. So like I've stated before, if an order from us is on time, its late.
An order is to be done before its due, not when. and the parts can never be wrong.
We get it done as fast as possible.
and when its your whole business model, you gotta find systems to ensure that.

So I can get a CAD part in, pull it in analyze machining scenario, check stock size, order material, order tooling if needed(next day),program it that day or the next, material arrives guaranteed next day, throw it in the auto saw,
load tools, vises are usually setup as bite jaws with stops, throw in program and material and go.
We most of the time are running a persons parts by 12:00 the next day, or if I have leftover material prior that's the size, I do all this the day it comes in, its setup and waiting for material to arrive by noon.

if I didn't have enough machines to continue this I would just buy more, that's what I have been doing, I will buy a machine just to get a single customers parts done, there cheap, Ive done it.

If I made high density fixtures for everything this would cripple this system immensely, so it is extremely relative to what your doing and offering in your shop. and the work it takes in.
 
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Jeebus, Kurt has another 6" vise that isn't the DX6? I can't keep up. Okay, looks like a solid, basic 6" vise. At the risk of making a bad pun, it's apples and Oranges though. You aren't satisfied because of all the extra features that you intentionally bought.

The inevitable reality is that you might need/want both types of vises.

They gotta keep releasing stuff to keep charging more lol

On paper Orange looked good, but in practice, for us it doesn't seem to be the case.

Okay, another variation on the Kurt design. Seems like a nice option, though here's what I see: a flat rail and screw clamping system much like what you already own. It has top jaws of a different design. I'm not knocking either product but, you have what you have soo...

So that's what I need to figure out. On paper the Orange dovetails should be flat...but they're not. Maybe the Kurt's aren't either.

Why don't you make some top jaws that are the way you want them? Keep the rails fastened to the machine. Snap the jaw carriers on and off as needed.

Not ruling that out. But we seem to be spending more time messing around with the vises than we are working on things that make us money lol
 
You said flipping the Orange so the bolt on's were on the outside was the last straw,
But then your looking at vises that are Carvesmart? I'm confused:nutter:
Also just to point this out to you or others who don't know, you cant put Carvesmart jaws in the vise on the outsides, they do not work backwards, you will just rip them out of their pockets.
So with this, you will have exactly the same setup, Carvesmart inside, bolt on out side, but I don't think Kurt's are flippable, are they? Sounds like you going backwards, or down grading versatility.
Just sayin.:D

We like the versatility of the CS. Swapping between CS and the CS serrated jaws would be really nice.

I don't think I ever mentioned flipping the jaws or using CS on the outside? If I did, I misspoke.
 
I can try. Yeah, what you have said is correct. The pins themself have some movement and because the jaw isn't actually fixed we are seeing movement if we tighten/loosen/retighten a part. I can try to get some photos or video next tiem I'm at the shop
Oh yeah, that's no good. I'm sure you noticed this on those vises but, not really thought about it the way the sales people do:

Vises use two kinds of screw mechanisms. Single-station Kurts generally have the screw forces acting on the vise frame. Tighten the screw. It pushes or pulls the movable jaw toward the fixed jaw. The fixed jaw is also attached to the frame. All the load is wanting to tear the frame apart.

On dual station vises, like your Orange, the screw acts on both jaws. None of the clamping load is going through the frame at all. The frame is just there for a spacer, to hold the work up off the table. Through some kind of ramp, claw, slot or other feature, the same screw action pulls down on the jaws.

Problem with that method with two floating jaws is they are free to move in the horizontal plane. On some of the convertible vises like the Orange, the fixed jaws are hard-mounted through screws and dowels. They ain't moving. That's good because all those horizontal cutting forces are going through the anchor of that jaw to the base and down to the table.

If your dowels are loose (at all), that jaw is free to slip and slide under cutting forces. Yeah, they're sucked down to the rails but, that friction is no match for machining. Yeah, that's a real problem.
 
Now that you mention it like this, I guess it does have a high dependence on differing aspects. I don't look at the quantity really, unless its small. or really big numbers, but that's relative.


See I design my parts key offsets, load a couple tools, cycle start, I don't have to build a fixture,that's extremely time consuming.
That cost of materials, and time is gone for me, (except when I build a fixture)BUT depending on the part size/density and quantity, a fixture will get the order done quicker after the first time because of tool changes and clean out time.
If you were a low quantity high mix job shop, and not production, making fixtures all the time would be a negative on average.

A lot of the parts we do in vises would not have a high gain switching to a fixture, as in instead of 6 parts you would get 8, or along those lines.
you really need to do both a lot to tell what direction to go vise or fixture, each part is different.

You machine jaws in the machine to hold a fixture plate that's machined flat, and load your thin plate work on it. And to tell you the truth I don't do big flat plate work, but if I did, and we were supposed to, I would buy a machine just for that work, and it wouldn't have vises in it. Something like , but not, a Haas GR. I would rather have full size plates delivered and loaded into a gantry machine, and get rid of the cost and time waiting for plate to be cut, done this before also. Most our plate work we get though doesn't need to be flat either, its just cutting shapes and chamfering things for cosmetics, no machining in the Z really, and to no tight tolerances either.

edit: also I guess because of my business model, as people have mentioned, "I have to take my vises off for differing parts" I would definitely not do this, for my business model, I would just buy another machine dedicated to that type of work, truthfully, machines are cheap.


The vise does really give you speed and flexibility, especially like you said, you like to make a fixture fit more parts, longer cycles.
I still make fixtures sometimes also if it fits better for the scenario,
I make them in the vises though, and they are held in with vises, I don't pull the vises off, and mount the fixture on the table.

Also with all this their also is a main thing to consider also, let alone part size/quantity,
what is your business model?

We have heard all too often "machine shops over promise under deliver" and "are parts arent correct even afterwards"
So personally in my shop, its all about not doing this. So like I've stated before, if an order from us is on time, its late.
An order is to be done before its due, not when. and the parts can never be wrong.
We get it done as fast as possible.
and when its your whole business model, you gotta find systems to ensure that.

So I can get a CAD part in, pull it in analyze machining scenario, check stock size, order material, order tooling if needed(next day),program it that day or the next, material arrives guaranteed next day, throw it in the auto saw,
load tools, vises are usually setup as bite jaws with stops, throw in program and material and go.
We most of the time are running a persons parts by 12:00 the next day, or if I have leftover material prior that's the size, I do all this the day it comes in, its setup and waiting for material to arrive by noon.

if I didn't have enough machines to continue this I would just buy more, that's what I have been doing, I will buy a machine just to get a single customers parts done, there cheap, Ive done it.

If I made high density fixtures for everything this would cripple this system immensely, so it is extremely relative to what your doing and offering in your shop. and the work it takes in.

That makes sense.

I only make parts for me so every part is part of a product we make over and over.

I approach every part from a "how do I make this most efficiently " and vises never win.

I think fixtures, so every part goes in a fixture, probably even if its not a bad part for vises because i just dont like putting vises on the table much. You think vises so every part goes in vises.

I only open my mouth in this thread because I see lots of "which vise is the most bestest" threads and wonder if vises are even the right tool.
 
That makes sense.

I only make parts for me so every part is part of a product we make over and over.

I approach every part from a "how do I make this most efficiently " and vises never win.

I think fixtures, so every part goes in a fixture, probably even if its not a bad part for vises because i just dont like putting vises on the table much. You think vises so every part goes in vises.

I only open my mouth in this thread because I see lots of "which vise is the most bestest" threads and wonder if vises are even the right tool.
If you watch the Youtube videos on those Triag power clamp vises, or similar, they are kinda best of both worlds, its high density vises.
 
Orange is a great vice and I prefer them to Kurt for a number of reasons. Number one being the compact nice stock all around grind, (2) the versatility of the Carvesmart system, (3) Eric hasn't ever shied away from comments here and I respect that and (4) it's been an integral part of my workflow for almost 10 years and I can depend on the setup. I never have expected my soft jaws to repeat close enough if I remove them after a cut so I always machine in a reference bore or feature I can indicate on if I care about the parts to a sub 0.005" measurement (arbitrarily grabbed the 0.005" measurement because I just always re-indicate my soft jaws out of habit). I don't think you can go wrong with Orange. If you don't like it there are plenty of people here, including myself, that will buy up the vice(s) if it proves unacceptable.
 
If you watch the Youtube videos on those Triag power clamp vises, or similar, they are kinda best of both worlds, its high density vises.

Those are neat, but not the kind of part density I'd want.

Pitbull and uniforce clamps run with an Uryu driver are low cost and work well for me.

A lot of my fixtures are just 6061 flatbar with slots for the blanks and a clamp for every 2 parts. Uryu driver goes as fast as you can move from screw to screw. 10 seconds installs 20 parts kinda speed. Fixture cost $20. All the grippers, mitee-bite parts and t-slot keys or dowel pins are shared between fixtures.

2nd ops I like to locate on bosses and hold the part with screws the same size as the clamps used in the first op.
 








 
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