Would lengthy blackouts create new manufacturing opportunities?

[Scottl]

Thinking a bit about those generator failures I think I may have figured out a bit more. These were older models and as I recall all the guys who had failures were in construction. These days high quality jobsite saws are common but some years back a lot of guys were still using things like the Rockwell Delta builder's saws which have very high startup currents. The manual on mine warns of this and says not to use fast trip breakers or non heavy duty sources.

I'm sure Honda has improved the output stages after examining returned failed units and the jobsite saws are engineered to run off common generators so the issue wouldn't be as common today.

However, a quality conventional generator with adequate copper windings and good bearings is still going to be more reliable long term than a lightweight high-revving generator with semiconductors in the output path. There are some hybrid units on the market today that have conventional outlets for higher currents and also inverter outlets for equipment that is sensitive to voltage and frequency variations. During an outage you can also use a UPS between the generator and sensitive equipment to get the same effect. A unit like thermite's military surplus genset is about as bulletproof as you can get if it's maintained properly.

 

[thermite]

A unit like thermite's military surplus genset is about as bulletproof as you can get if it's maintained properly.

Nah. It's just a Fermont-assembled Lister-Petter 4-banger with a Marathon head.

I had easily a dozen types of MIL-SPEC gen sets in 'nam over the span of our tour.

The "bulletpoofest" one was a 1930's technology, 1948 built "Buda" that ran the Acetylene plant. 5 KVA, size and mass of a 15 KVA, and Buda were "semi-Diesel" designs, so not all that great on fuel economy. Not that GI's had to care.

Bugger lunched its starter-motor, 'unobtanium" by 1968, so the ROK vets who staffed PA&E Long Binh Fire Department UNWOUND it, strung the wire around the upright posts of an open sided equipement shed, weled the break, "walked the line" of the wire with sandpaper in hand to remove the burnt varnish, then re-varnished it by hand with Hog-bristle brushes. Rewound, baked it in a 55 gal drum over charcoal fire and it worked as good as new. South Korean "farm boys" can give lessons even to Iowa as to fixin' stuff!

Injector pump lunched a spring? Turned out that an M-14 rifle bolt "Ejector" spring fit, and once again it was back up and running!

Ease of repair when stuff DOES break beats so-called "never-break". See "Listeroids" out of India. Better-yet, hopper-cooled Chinese Diesels that were once cheap enough to put-by a six-pack of spares..

"On the other hand..". All of those "BFBI" Diesels are DIRTY. Even the legendary Gardners were as well.

My Lister-Petter, by contrast, was actually "CARB Compliant"..... when built in 2007, anyway..

 

[Demon69]

For the lulz

 

[standardparts]

Nah. It's just a Fermont-assembled Lister-Petter 4-banger with a Marathon head.

I had easily a dozen types of MIL-SPEC gen sets in 'nam over the span of our tour.

The "bulletpoofest" one was a 1930's technology, 1948 built "Buda" that ran the Acetylene plant. 5 KVA, size and mass of a 15 KVA, and Buda were "semi-Diesel" designs, so not all that great on fuel economy. Not that GI's had to care.

Bugger lunched its starter-motor, 'unobtanium" by 1968, so the ROK vets who staffed PA&E Long Binh Fire Department UNWOUND it, strung the wire around the upright posts of an open sided equipement shed, weled the break, "walked the line" of the wire with sandpaper in hand to remove the burnt varnish, then re-varnished it by hand with Hog-bristle brushes. Rewound, baked it in a 55 gal drum over charcoal fire and it worked as good as new. South Korean "farm boys" can give lessons even to Iowa as to fixin' stuff!

Injector pump lunched a spring? Turned out that an M-14 rifle bolt "Ejector" spring fit, and once again it was back up and running!

Ease of repair when stuff DOES break beats so-called "never-break". See "Listeroids" out of India. Better-yet, hopper-cooled Chinese Diesels that were once cheap enough to put-by a six-pack of spares..

"On the other hand..". All of those "BFBI" Diesels are DIRTY. Even the legendary Gardners were as well.

My Lister-Petter, by contrast, was actually "CARB Compliant"..... when built in 2007, anyway..

Since the thread has strayed a bit into engines and electrical generation.....

Ever hear of "Waukesha-Hesselman Oil Engines"?...... Am always interested in arcane and untold stories of WW2 logistics and things that helped win the war...one of which was drilling for oil in England's Sherwood Forest. Call the Texas roughnecks. Other than shovels and gloves they had to have Waukesha-Hesselman Oil Engines. Link to the short version:

Yanks are Coming

 

[Big B]

Well the mill may not be running yet but it seems the 300-MW Bighorn Solar facility that is to run it has been completed and commissioned in early March.

However, as I said in an earlier reply to him not only do many other parts of the country not have 1,800 acres to spare for a solar installation but also do not have the same daily insolation as that desert facility.

You need to consider that you can do more with the 1,800 acres than put solar panels on it, like put buildings under those panels.

 

[Big B]

~~~~~~~~Mod Note~~~~~~~~~`
Post Deleted, Off Topic, Not constructive, extreme discussion of politics,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Big B]

Thinking a bit about those generator failures I think I may have figured out a bit more. These were older models and as I recall all the guys who had failures were in construction. These days high quality jobsite saws are common but some years back a lot of guys were still using things like the Rockwell Delta builder's saws which have very high startup currents. The manual on mine warns of this and says not to use fast trip breakers or non heavy duty sources.

I'm sure Honda has improved the output stages after examining returned failed units and the jobsite saws are engineered to run off common generators so the issue wouldn't be as common today.

However, a quality conventional generator with adequate copper windings and good bearings is still going to be more reliable long term than a lightweight high-revving generator with semiconductors in the output path. There are some hybrid units on the market today that have conventional outlets for higher currents and also inverter outlets for equipment that is sensitive to voltage and frequency variations. During an outage you can also use a UPS between the generator and sensitive equipment to get the same effect. A unit like thermite's military surplus genset is about as bulletproof as you can get if it's maintained properly.

The inverter generators aren't high revving machines. Quite the opposite is true. They only run the speed that they need to output the wattage that is being called for instead of running a steady wide open speed like old generators. The only time a inverter generator runs at full speed is if it is feeding a full load.

 

[jim rozen]

"Yeah......Often times people don't consider the ramifications of living in isolated places. They also don't factor in getting old and being unable to hike out of a situation."

This place had a ranger station at the mouth of the canyon and in a dire emergency they could airlift somebody out. But folks were pretty tough. There was a doctor who was 'colonel' pugsly who had one eye, and served the locals. I think he was a ww2 veteran and did indeed hold that rank. He died shortly after his wife did, they were in their 80s and lived independently up a side road.

Rangers were there but didn't do much. There was a medium sized black bear that was hassling the lady with three small kids, bear was trying to get in the cabin. Rangers wouldn't do anything because nobody got hurt. The research station handyman used his 30-06 to solve the problem, they dropped the bear off at the ranger station.

 

[michiganbuck]

At fish camp Ontario the neighbor lady was cooking fish and a black bear came in the back door..she ran out the front door..., and The Ontario D & R had to come and get rid of that bear. We are 8 miles across the lake to the nearest road. then about 20 or what to town...A winter-graded road so almost always open.
Mostly fuel gas and propane are used for cooking and backup heat., and some cabins (ours included) use a solar bank for lights...and we are quick to turn off the lights so as not to run out of lights. Our fuel gas 2500 is used to build up the battery bank if we get a cloudy or snow storm for a few days. We fire up every morning to make coffee because the electric coffee pot is easier to rush coffee.
Almost all cabins have a wood stove for main/winter heat. I think there are about 8 cabins on our side of the lake.
Some cabins have a water well and many just use lake water.

 

[latheman78]

You need to consider that you can do more with the 1,800 acres than put solar panels on it, like put buildings under those panels.

I am going to get warned again for calling you out on spreading nonsense. You obviously have never been to a solar farm, not sure of the size and angle of those panels, but you are going to barely get a dog igloo under the low end.

 

[latheman78]

~~~~~~~~Mod Note~~~~~~~~~`
Post Deleted, Off Topic, Not constructive, extreme discussion of politics,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Big B]

I am going to get warned again for calling you out on spreading nonsense. You obviously have never been to a solar farm, not sure of the size and angle of those panels, but you are going to barely get a dog igloo under the low end.

You're kidding, right? Mount the panels on the rooves of buildings and it won't matter if they're on a skyscraper.

 

[kustomizer]

#1. We still don't have a mill running off solar, it is a project 15% completed that is way behind schedule.

#2. Parroting?? Those were Senile Joe's exact words, I am repeating what your leader said. It does matter, you are condoning lying when it comes from your side of the aisle.
Yes it is outright lying, nothing more nothing less. 9mm bullets don't blow out lungs, and .223s don't liquefy organs or pulverize bodies.

Before the move we were here, 7 VMC's, 2 turning centers, belt grinders, drill presses etc, skin pack packaging machines, enough to keep 12 people busy full time. The solar array produced enough to run the climate controlled ( 70 degrees year round) shop, our home and well powered, we were grid tied but typically made enough power to cover our needs and get $200 - $1000 rebate per year. If we were younger we would do it again here.

4052 Mountain Ranch Rd #24, San Andreas, CA 95249 | Zillow

4052 Mountain Ranch Rd #24, San Andreas CA, is a Single Family home that contains 1800 sq ft and was built in 1985.It contains 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. The Zestimate for this Single Family is $523,000, which has increased by $4,000 in the last 30 days.The Rent Zestimate for this Single...

www.zillow.com

 

[Freedommachine]

Wow, this thread got so much better! A lot to learn and some interesting stories.

 

[standardparts]

Before the move we were here, 7 VMC's, 2 turning centers, belt grinders, drill presses etc, skin pack packaging machines, enough to keep 12 people busy full time. The solar array produced enough to run the climate controlled ( 70 degrees year round) shop, our home and well powered, we were grid tied but typically made enough power to cover our needs and get $200 - $1000 rebate per year. If we were younger we would do it again here.

4052 Mountain Ranch Rd #24, San Andreas, CA 95249 | Zillow

4052 Mountain Ranch Rd #24, San Andreas CA, is a Single Family home that contains 1800 sq ft and was built in 1985.It contains 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. The Zestimate for this Single Family is $523,000, which has increased by $4,000 in the last 30 days.The Rent Zestimate for this Single...

www.zillow.com

Rather than theoretical use of solar, your previous location shows use of solar to provide power for shop that was actually a funtioning CNC operation. Very impressive!

 

[Big B]

Rather than theoretical use of solar, your previous location shows use of solar to provide power for shop that was actually a funtioning CNC operation. Very impressive!

But he wasn't using solar to haul his machines to Idaho so it doesn't count with some. I've told many times about my non theoretical use of solar on my 5th wheel too.

 

[Thunderjet]

But he wasn't using solar to haul his machines to Idaho so it doesn't count with some.

So here's a guy that actually DID what you are calling for, and you still can't congratulate him on a job well done?

I think it's very impressive to run a decent sized CNC shop and a house with solar.

But if we talk about that, we're not talking about YOU are we?

 

[thermite]

Rather than theoretical use of solar, your previous location shows use of solar to provide power for shop that was actually a funtioning CNC operation. Very impressive!

It isn't as if we lack experience with solar:

Solar-cooling-system performance, Frenchman's Reef Hotel, St. Thomas, US Virgin Islands. Final report (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV

The U.S. Department of Energy's Office of Scientific and Technical Information

www.osti.gov

That's a 1981 publication. The project had already been running for long enough to gather the data.

At the time, I was a "beta site" with the exact same "Sunmaster" evacuated-tube thermal solar collectors on my home in Annandale, VA. I had built it specifically for best sun exposure, even to roof-tilt.

I had but three four-tube-each units - 12 tubes total, all with built-in "passive tracking" reflectors, one 55 gallon storage/heat-exchange unit (home-brewed).

That covered year-around hot water needs for bathing, kitchen, and laundry for a family of five (plus our dogs!).

Not long after, the founder of "DragonFly BSD' used the same tubes WITHOUT the parabolic 'passive tracking' reflectors on his home, and in a FAR larger array.

THERMAL solar, evacuated tube, is around FOUR TIMES as efficient (80-85%) at collecting the solar energy as Photo-Voltaic solar is NOW, (barely over 20%) and was about EIGHT times as efficent compared to far more costly photovoltaic technology as it WAS ....back in the late 1970's (about 10% to 12% 'affordable').

Annnddd .. thermal can last FAR longer and has cheaper and more durable storage, too.

"Bulkier", yes, the 'storage' is. Tanks of water or big-ass cistern of ROCKS and water. But those are low-tech, low danger (no gases or fire or explosion risk atall) and do not need the level of maintenance of battery arrays.

Ergo thermal solar has waaaay TF better 'life-cycle' costs!

A "hybrid" approach is even better!

BUILD and insulate for low-loss, low NEED. We understand GOOD insulation better than we once did.

Cover HW, space heating & air-con off thermal solar.

Run 'puters, appliances and lighting off Photovoltaic & battery.

LED lighting, and microwave or induction cooking make this work rather well.
Computers and monitors don't need as much energy as they once did, either.

Add a skosh of wind-power for water pumping or battery charging - wherever it makes any sense to do, ELSE NOT.

BUT.. "do the math", sanely!!!

There are serious investments to be made, and they need to be made for the "long game".

Example:

What failed my 1970/80's 'Sunmaster" system wasn't "technical".

It was a divorce!

 

[michiganbuck]

I think it is great that a machine shop and home can run on solar, How many square feet of panels are used?

Again some here think that I am against solar, but I am not.
My peeve is that solar should not be subsided by taxes.
And a comparison of one's current electric bill should be used to compare with the honest expectations of any alternate power system, so people are not cheated by salesmen who promise things that don't happen.

Even the subsidy is often mistaken. For a $20,000 solar system, you get about $5.000 tax credit, not $5,000 off the price. Your actual/true savings may be about $1200 if in the 22% tax bracket.

With taking out a loan for nearly $20,000 just the annual interest may be near a year's electric bill..figuring that an average or small house may have a $1200 a year electric bill.

 

[standardparts]

It isn't as if we lack experience with solar:..........

My post was regarding one individuals proven use of solar for a CNC shop. Don't know how many of us "we lack experience" is even accurate as it's likely very few on PM have utilized renewable to run machine shops. My post was just a comment regarding one example.