Would lengthy blackouts create new manufacturing opportunities?

[standardparts]

But he wasn't using solar to haul his machines to Idaho so it doesn't count with some. I've told many times about my non theoretical use of solar on my 5th wheel too.

Well you have machines. You have machining experience. You seem to have a passion for solar energy. Why not take that shop of yours, use you shop roof and have panels installed, and give us a running account of costs and efficiency. Move from the theoretical part time solar guy to full time real deal solar powered machining guy.

 

[latheman78]

But he wasn't using solar to haul his machines to Idaho so it doesn't count with some. I've told many times about my non theoretical use of solar on my 5th wheel too.

What is the purpose of posting nonsense like this? I am also pretty sure having a trailer with solar panels on it isn't counteracting all the emissions created towing a large trailer all over the place compared to a typical camping enthusiast. As far as being a greenie, you aren't one.

 

[latheman78]

You're kidding, right? Mount the panels on the rooves of buildings and it won't matter if they're on a skyscraper.

We were talking about a solar farm, but you knew that, those panels are low to the ground.

 

[kustomizer]

The Array was most of 3000sf when originally put up, the whole mess was changes under warranty at 9 years old as the modules shorted and wrecked the 5 inverters, 6kw each. When put up it cost 250k, there was 85k in state rebates paid for by utility users, collected by PG&E then paid to us by the state, 120k in federal tax deductions to be taken over 5 years and 80k in state tax deductions taken whenever you wanted. We had a combined electric bill of over $750 per month so it really was a no brainer. I would rather see incentives to put up a solar array than just pay people to stay home, pay for Illegal alien's, pay people a rebate to combat inflation or any number of other things California sends out checks for.

 

[latheman78]

Before the move we were here, 7 VMC's, 2 turning centers, belt grinders, drill presses etc, skin pack packaging machines, enough to keep 12 people busy full time. The solar array produced enough to run the climate controlled ( 70 degrees year round) shop, our home and well powered, we were grid tied but typically made enough power to cover our needs and get $200 - $1000 rebate per year. If we were younger we would do it again here.

4052 Mountain Ranch Rd #24, San Andreas, CA 95249 | Zillow

4052 Mountain Ranch Rd #24, San Andreas CA, is a Single Family home that contains 1800 sq ft and was built in 1985.It contains 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms. The Zestimate for this Single Family is $523,000, which has increased by $4,000 in the last 30 days.The Rent Zestimate for this Single...

www.zillow.com

The mill I stated was a steel mill in case you didn't know. Interesting set-up you had, tell us more. How did the solar panels feed the shop? Did you have natural gas or heating oil?
Just curious how things are hooked up.

 

[latheman78]

The Array was most of 3000sf when originally put up, the whole mess was changes under warranty at 9 years old as the modules shorted and wrecked the 5 inverters, 6kw each. When put up it cost 250k, there was 85k in state rebates paid for by utility users, collected by PG&E then paid to us by the state, 120k in federal tax deductions to be taken over 5 years and 80k in state tax deductions taken whenever you wanted. We had a combined electric bill of over $750 per month so it really was a no brainer. I would rather see incentives to put up a solar array than just pay people to stay home, pay for Illegal alien's, pay people a rebate to combat inflation or any number of other things California sends out checks for.

That adds up to $285k in rebates and credits or did I miss something.

 

[thermite]

That adds up to $285k in rebates and credits or did I miss something.

You missed rather a lot.

- A "rebate" is against money spent. That's how it gets the name.

- A tax deduction is not the same as a tax CREDIT.

- Either of a tax deduction .. or even a tax credit ... is worth little - or nothing - unless you had more tax otherwise-due than at least a portion of that figure.

 

[kustomizer]

The mill I stated was a steel mill in case you didn't know. Interesting set-up you had, tell us more. How did the solar panels feed the shop? Did you have natural gas or heating oil?
Just curious how things are hooked up.

The power made on the roof is daisy chained to around 300vdc in a string then fed into an inverter to change it to 240vac, 5 inverters and strings into our meter main power panel. Whatever power we didn't use was pushed onto the grid to feed other places, in the summer when demand was high we pushed a lot of power their way.
Once a year the meter was read and they would send us a check for any surplus we made or a bill if we used more than we made. We heated with an oil burner, mostly #2 diesel but any used oil from cars, machines or whatever the neighbors brought by went in the tank. Natural gas was not available there, propane cost more than diesel and has 30% less BTU's. When the grid went down, we were down too though I think on sunny days I could have thrown the grid disconnect and tickled the inverters with a small generator then gone back to work but I never did try it, power was never off that long.

 

[kustomizer]

That adds up to $285k in rebates and credits or did I miss something.

200k was tax deductible on our income taxes spread over 5 years not a check in the mail

 

[latheman78]

200k was tax deductible on our income taxes spread over 5 years not a check in the mail

Was that a tax credit or a deduction off gross income.

 

[kustomizer]

Was that a tax credit or a deduction off gross income.

Deduction from our gross income. The incentives are not as good here and now, the power here is too cheap, and we are too old to do it again.

 

[latheman78]

The power made on the roof is daisy chained to around 300vdc in a string then fed into an inverter to change it to 240vac, 5 inverters and strings into our meter main power panel. Whatever power we didn't use was pushed onto the grid to feed other places, in the summer when demand was high we pushed a lot of power their way.
Once a year the meter was read and they would send us a check for any surplus we made or a bill if we used more than we made. We heated with an oil burner, mostly #2 diesel but any used oil from cars, machines or whatever the neighbors brought by went in the tank. Natural gas was not available there, propane cost more than diesel and has 30% less BTU's. When the grid went down, we were down too though I think on sunny days I could have thrown the grid disconnect and tickled the inverters with a small generator then gone back to work but I never did try it, power was never off that long.

Hopefully last questions.
1. How does the solar back feed the grid as in where does it connect?

2. After running through the inverters how many lines are available compared to the typical 240v residential service with two single phase 120v lines that combine for 240v.

3. Is there a way to get the solar panels to produce 3 phase through solid state circuity or did you need to use a rotary phase converter?

4. It does appear your solar panels kept up with total yearly shop demand in KWH, but
could it have run the shop if the grid went down on a sunny day? Could it have handled
the inrush currents?

 

[latheman78]

You missed rather a lot.

- A "rebate" is against money spent. That's how it gets the name.

- A tax deduction is not the same as a tax CREDIT.

- Either of a tax deduction .. or even a tax credit ... is worth little - or nothing - unless you had more tax otherwise-due than at least a portion of that figure.

I understand all that.

 

[thermite]

Deduction from our gross income. The incentives are not as good here and now, the power here is too cheap, and we are too old to do it again.

Well there's a "beneficiary headcount" factor as well.

My present home also has its long ridgeline very close to due East-West. Collectors wouldn't need a weirdly-angled structure - could be flat to the roof or even mounted to vertical walls.

There's a wide street to the front (South), so minimal shading.

But.. there is no longer a year-round family. Just me.

I'm storing foodstuffs and fixing meals only for ONE, most months of the year. Good natural light sources, daytimes. Lighting is "mostly' LED and "mostly" on motion-detectors, so most areas don't see lighting even powered-on often or even at all.

Ergo my kitchen, laundry, and bath couldn't POSSIBLY save enough over utility mains power to make it worth the bother, even if I had more years than are likely.

As the "shop" is purely hobby R&D, and "when the spirit moves me", I don't factor it into the "routine" power budget AT ALL.

Basically, it takes the same sort of fiscal place as "splurge on booze and brothels" type of 'binge' spend.

NB: I like to think I can only even afford it because I DIDN'T "splurge on booze & brothels."

Which probably wudda been CHEAPER than rented airplanes, autos, boats, and lodging for global holidaying...

"Too late now..." More pain than gain.

How many 'mericans have similar situations?

I'd bet "enough" that "green" residences will grow only slowly, regardless of any legislated "incentives".

The gains will come primarily as the UTILITY companies adopt renewables.. to deliver over the existing grid, end-luser not even aware unless he reads about it in the funny-papers or the Powerco's annual report.
.

 

[kustomizer]

Hopefully last questions.
1. How does the solar back feed the grid as in where does it connect?

2. After running through the inverters how many lines are available compared to the typical 240v residential service with two single phase 120v lines that combine for 240v.

3. Is there a way to get the solar panels to produce 3 phase through solid state circuity or did you need to use a rotary phase converter?

4. It does appear your solar panels kept up with total yearly shop demand in KWH, but
could it have run the shop if the grid went down on a sunny day? Could it have handled
the inrush currents?

The power from the inverters was 2 lines connected in the 3 phase meter main panel via a double circuit breaker just like you would connect an air compressor or anything else, they were all 5 in a vertical row heating all 3 phases via 5 double breakers. When we made more power than we used the meter would run backwards.

We were producing 10 lines feeding the 3, most were 120v but some were 240v as we had the kind of 3 phase with a stinger leg.

Because we had 5 they did in effect make 3 phase power, no converter. I heard there are real 3 phase inverters now but have no experience with them.

Our 15hp rotary compressor was the biggest inrush and we have since switched to a bank of 4 piston pumps that are 3hp each, partly because the rotary was expensive to run as a whole but mostly because here you get charged more for big inrush.

I do think it would have run the machines without the grid if I could have kept it on but do not know that for certain however they do have inverters now with small battery banks and grid tied for just that type of use. Here again I have not used one.

We had big plans of putting up another solar array here in Idaho after getting settled but have decided against it. We had to guess what our power usage would be here with just the 2 of us and we guessed too low ( we had been a lot of years without a bill and our usage at the old place included the house and well).
@ months ago we got a letter from Idaho power stating our usage was higher for 12 months than expected so they were moving us to a new rate schedule, Instead of 8 cents a kw they now charge us 10 cents to a point then 4.5 cents from there on. Our shop bill went from $240 to $165 as a result, a solar system here would take 20 years to pay off so unless something changes we ain't gonna do it.

 

[latheman78]

Thank you very much, Kustomizer for your technically detailed information. Nothing like a well informed user of a product to lay out the pros and cons, much appreciated.

 

[latheman78]

~~~~~~~~Mod Note~~~~~~~~~`
Post Deleted, Off Topic, Not constructive, extreme discussion of politics,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I object. My post was nothing but proof of people lying for a cause, and the speakers knew they were lying. Whether it was a political topic or not is immaterial. What I posted was relevant as it is obvious people that are pro green energy at all cost will mislead the uniformed. Pretty much every hot topic these days has political ties, even if it is people just politicking to try to prove a point.

 

[jaguar36]

I object. My post was nothing but proof of people lying for a cause, and the speakers knew they were lying. Whether it was a political topic or not is immaterial. What I posted was relevant as it is obvious people that are pro green energy at all cost will mislead the uniformed. Pretty much every hot topic these days has political ties, even if it is people just politicking to try to prove a point.

Your post clearly violated the rules listed here. Talking about statements made by politicians about guns has nothing to do with the current topic regardless of its validity. Note that you did not receive a warning. However I am growing tired of having to repeatedly deal with 3 or 4 individuals who continue to violate both the letter and the spirit of the rules and will be more liberal with the warnings (and the resultant bans) for those individuals in the future.

 

[kustomizer]

Thank you very much, Kustomizer for your technically detailed information. Nothing like a well informed user of a product to lay out the pros and cons, much appreciated.

I am if nothing else, a wealth of useless information slanted to my own profit

 

[IceCzar]

Actually it's Climate Changed.
Climate Anomalies are now normal, unpredictable and increasing in frequency. And yes adaptation is going to be a major driver of manufacturing.

Already is.