5 axis and pallet pool, who competes with Haas?

[Billy_C]

@EmGo They have publicly available pricing. Still waiting for information on this similarly speced umc500 destroyer for less money. If it isn’t add-to-cart, you don’t understand the full scope of competitive. That’s part of the package. It has nothing to do with being brave.

 

[EmGo]

Haas build a quote is like Ali's rope-a-dope.

Nothing to do with Haas but I have to stick up for Ali a little here. The myth about that fight is rope-a-dope because it makes a great story but the reality is, Ali annihilated George right from the bell. Outboxed him, outsmarted him, out-psyched him, that fight was an absolute master class in skills.

It's on youtube, along with a couple of good commentaries on what is happening. Worth an evening's viewing.

They have publicly available pricing. Still waiting for information on this similarly speced umc500 destroyer for less money. If it isn’t add-to-cart, you don’t understand the full scope of competitive. That’s part of the package. It has nothing to do with being brave.

Has everything to do with being brave and doing research. If you want the whole enchilada placed gently on the table in front of you already chewed, that's fine, but you get to pay for it - both in quality and in money.

I've said several times, we can help. I've talked to some people just for fun about what is available design-wise and logistically. If you don't want to, that's your own decision but possibly shouldn't make claims that aren't correct. There's much better choices for 5 axis out there than haas, for less money.

And I've already put up photos and some description stuff, it's there to start, not going to spam the world just because people don't know how to use pm's. But just for fun, here. I think this one was $130,000 ... you don't think this is better than that rube goldberg nightmare ?

 

[thesidetalker]

Nothing to do with Haas but I have to stick up for Ali a little here. The myth about that fight is rope-a-dope because it makes a great story but the reality is, Ali annihilated George right from the bell. Outboxed him, outsmarted him, out-psyched him, that fight was an absolute master class in skills.

It's on youtube, along with a couple of good commentaries on what is happening. Worth an evening's viewing.


Has everything to do with being brave and doing research. If you want the whole enchilada placed gently on the table in front of you already chewed, that's fine, but you get to pay for it - both in quality and in money.

I've said several times, we can help. I've talked to some people just for fun about what is available design-wise and logistically. If you don't want to, that's your own decision but possibly shouldn't make claims that aren't correct. There's much better choices for 5 axis out there than haas, for less money.

And I've already put up photos and some description stuff, it's there to start, not going to spam the world just because people don't know how to use pm's. But just for fun, here. I think this one was $130,000 ... you don't think this is better than that rube goldberg nightmare ?

View attachment 409335

That's great... except not many from the states are going to bother when trying to get or find any information is impossible. Why is it all super secret squirrel shit?

Oh, right. They don't really care to sell to the states and do plenty of business over there. No need for a website or any publicly available information.

So why keep posting this shit? It's getting pretty old.

Great. It's a superior design and cheaper to buy... except you can't. Gotta PM some random guy on an internet forum. Nobody has time for that nonsense.

It's been said before, the reason Haas sells machines is because its easy. All of the information, how-to's, pricing, etc is readily available and easy to find. And at least the idea of some kind of service if you need it is there. Whether or not you get it in a timely matter is another story. But how's that service from those Chinese machines? Something goes wrong... good luck.

 

[EmGo]

That's great... except not many from the states are going to bother when trying to get or find any information is impossible. Why is it all super secret squirrel shit?

Oh, right. They don't really care to sell to the states and do plenty of business over there. No need for a website or any publicly available information.

So why keep posting this shit? It's getting pretty old.

Haas shop, are you ? Sorry to hear that

JDNA-Precision CNC machine tool builder-High Speed Mills-High Speed Machining Centers-HSM-Hard Milling-Micro machining-Jingdiao North America

Jingdiao is a manufacturer of high speed & high precision micro machining centers.

us.jingdiao.com

 

[boosted]

Who cares how great the casting looks if the software is crap?

That beautiful chunk of iron doesn't tell us anything about thermal comp, acc/dec, rotation tracking, or a dozen other things that the controller has to magically take care of for a relatively complicated five axis machine to run happily.

I have seen Jingdiao five axis machines in person. I really wanted to like it, but the proprietary controller that looks like it was stolen from HAAS but runs on Windows and switches over to Mandarin characters once you go a couple menus deep... Well, it certainly didn't inspire confidence at the time.

Perhaps some of these Chinese machines are a well kept secret, but it sure doesn't look like it at first blush, and my time is too valuable to buy a five axis machine that might be a turd. I'd rather invest in the sure thing (which also is not a HAAS).

 

[cornerRad]

Who cares how great the casting looks if the software is crap?

That beautiful chunk of iron doesn't tell us anything about thermal comp, acc/dec, rotation tracking, or a dozen other things that the controller has to magically take care of for a relatively complicated five axis machine to run happily.

This is what gets me. The devil is in the details.

There's more to a machine than just the iron. Just like there's more to a race car than just the engine. Otherwise you'd see Joe Schmo with his 2000HP quad turbo hot rod setting Nürburgring records.

Also this is business, the goal is to make more money, more efficiently, not necessarily save it. If an unknown machine with no support and poor document requires lots of trouble shooting then I'm losing money compared to one of those expensive machines that can hit the floor running.

Can I do it? Yes
Is it cheaper to buy? Sure
Will it save me money and time over 10+year? Most likely not

Therefore it's not the best business decision.

 

[Billy_C]

guarantee you that i'm not undervaluing. i've PERSONALLY worked with 3 UMC500's. one of them being SS. as well as worked with Hermle, GF, Ibarmia, Matsuura and other higher end brand machines. i'm not saying haas cant make parts/money. but i wouldnt take one for free if it was handed to be, because its not worth the headache that they require to work around all the deficiencies that they carry compared to a real machine.

The headache required to get around the Haas deficiencies is certainly less than the headache required to get any kind of useful information out of @EmGo

 

[Billy_C]

But on a serious note, the Haas deficiencies are relative to what kind of work you are doing too. In prototype/job shop, most of the work is making white meat blocks/plates/brackets with holes and contours at 90* from each other and tolerances pulled out of some engineering intern's ass. If you are "mass producing" turbo impellers or titanium bone implants, obviously that puts the requirements on a different level. A Haas 5 axis used for that will present some challenges that may require a lot of time to work around, parts will be scrapped. I think that's why the answer is maybe somewhere in the middle. A few Haas machines around so you can hand off a lot of the work to the slackers that don't feel like mastering a new platform, and a few high end machines around for the more complex stuff and high end contract work that only a few of the more ambitious machinists are efficient on.

That's where I landed with my initial assessment, for all the reasons to go Haas, nobody else is close to real competition.

 

[Billy_C]

Haas shop, are you ? Sorry to hear that

JDNA-Precision CNC machine tool builder-High Speed Mills-High Speed Machining Centers-HSM-Hard Milling-Micro machining-Jingdiao North America

Jingdiao is a manufacturer of high speed & high precision micro machining centers.

us.jingdiao.com

What is this??? This isn't competition for Haas. A mystery proprietary control with no applications support available anywhere I can find. It could cost half as much but if nobody knows how to use it, it could be free and it would still be just waste of floor space. Prove us wrong, post a single page from applications document describing how to TCPC works on that control, what codes are used, how the machine is calculating it's positions once indexed. Again, not lack of bravery, a lack of wanting to burn a bunch of cash on a paperweight. Buying a used UMC500 is brave.

...less than 1 second search yielded this.

https://www.haascnc.com/service/codes-settings.type=gcode.machine=mill.value=G234.html

 

[empower]

But on a serious note, the Haas deficiencies are relative to what kind of work you are doing too. In prototype/job shop, most of the work is making white meat blocks/plates/brackets with holes and contours at 90* from each other and tolerances pulled out of some engineering intern's ass. If you are "mass producing" turbo impellers or titanium bone implants, obviously that puts the requirements on a different level. A Haas 5 axis used for that will present some challenges that may require a lot of time to work around, parts will be scrapped. I think that's why the answer is maybe somewhere in the middle. A few Haas machines around so you can hand off a lot of the work to the slackers that don't feel like mastering a new platform, and a few high end machines around for the more complex stuff and high end contract work that only a few of the more ambitious machinists are efficient on.

That's where I landed with my initial assessment, for all the reasons to go Haas, nobody else is close to real competition.

you'd be surprised. i've had awful experience getting trupo .01" on 3+2 features on a haas. if you're doing stuff looser than that - sure knock yourself out. but rotating then probing to get 3+2 features tighter than .01" is a big no thanks from me.

 

[empower]

What is this??? This isn't competition for Haas. A mystery proprietary control with no applications support available anywhere I can find. It could cost half as much but if nobody knows how to use it, it could be free and it would still be just waste of floor space. Prove us wrong, post a single page from applications document describing how to TCPC works on that control, what codes are used, how the machine is calculating it's positions once indexed. Again, not lack of bravery, a lack of wanting to burn a bunch of cash on a paperweight. Buying a used UMC500 is brave.

...less than 1 second search yielded this.

https://www.haascnc.com/service/codes-settings.type=gcode.machine=mill.value=G234.html

i've actually looked a bit into that machine. either Siemens on HH control. quite a compelling option, one i might consider when i'm in the market to buy a personal machine.

 

[boosted]

i've actually looked a bit into that machine. either Siemens on HH control. quite a compelling option, one i might consider when i'm in the market to buy a personal machine.

You can put a good controller on anything. Siemens or HH don't write the PLC, they don't handle the kinematics/dynamics, and they sure as heck don't build and calibrate the spindle. Part of why Siemens has such a bad rep in the states that there are a bunch of junk machines running around with poorly implemented 840C or 808 controllers.

It's harder to f--- up the integration on a HH, but there is very little preventing somebody from slapping it on a machine that looks robust, but is otherwise as ill considered as a UMC.

 

[empower]

You can put a good controller on anything. Siemens or HH don't write the PLC, they don't handle the kinematics/dynamics, and they sure as heck don't build and calibrate the spindle. Part of why Siemens has such a bad rep in the states that there are a bunch of junk machines running around with poorly implemented 840C or 808 controllers.

It's harder to f--- up the integration on a HH, but there is very little preventing somebody from slapping it on a machine that looks robust, but is otherwise as ill considered as a UMC.

fair points.

 

[mhajicek]

you'd be surprised. i've had awful experience getting trupo .01" on 3+2 features on a haas. if you're doing stuff looser than that - sure knock yourself out. but rotating then probing to get 3+2 features tighter than .01" is a big no thanks from me.

I ran a VF-3SS with a TR160Y, 24-7 for three months straight making Ti bone plates. 14 dual start 10° tapered threads from 10 different directions, with a +/- .005" depth tolerance on the taper. Wasn't too hard once I got it going, four plates per button push. Sure, other machines might have made the job a bit easier, but it worked just fine.

But no, I won't touch a UMC.

 

[EmGo]

You guys are funny

Yeah, you bought haas'es. I'm happy for you, that's what you wanted and that's what you did and that's what you got. Getting what you want is good.

But you are just throwing shit here, this is totally funny -- "The control looked like a Haas knockoff" - yeah, it displayed X Y and Z, like every control born since BENDIX created the first one with a Control Data minicomputer. My arfing Westinghouse had the minicomputer (not micro) made of discrete components on boards with a bit-sliced processor (honest) and the display looked just like that. So did the K&T with PDP-8 and the Sundstrand with a PDP-16. In fact, the nixie tube display on the Acc220 was pretty much the same.

Too silly

It really seems like your manhood is being challenged here or something. If you feel like an F350 will make your pecker bigger and that Ford dealer is such an asset, go for it. But I ran a Fiesta (original one) for several years, it got me to exactly the same places as you for a lot less money. And I once brought back all the innards to a KT180 control from Hughes Helicopter in Culver City in it, so could even do light freight work.

People buying machines have choices. You can buy new, you can buy used, you can choose whatever you want for your own level of mechanical ability. What I flat-out disagree with is saying "for the price you can't beat a Haas" because it quite simply is not true.

I don't hate Haas and don't spend my time making weirdass claims about them like you guys do anything from China. But they do not make the style of machine I would like. Even a conventional vmc, I like the double-column style better than a c-frame. I'd take a Hillyer in a heartbeat, but they don't make them. There's a Mazak that is pretty nice but mazatrol is not my cup of tea. So ... someone makes this, that's my new main squeeze, mmm



No overhanging crap stuck out fifty feet in the breeze. I'm not afraid of controls, have kept Actrions and 2560's running, maybe I'd choose local or maybe choose Heidenhain (never owned one but people who have seem to like them). Other people can make other choices, it doesn't make my pecker any smaller.

There's the difference here, you seem threatened by a newcomer but especially a "communist" one that's bigger, smarter, and more capable than you. I guess I can see why

Anyway, "Integration is so difficult !" bull fucking shit. This technology is seventy years old. Kids who never saw a machine except in a book make them work well with LoonixCNC. You're just stroking it. Anyone can and does fuck up integration, I've shaken my head in sorrow when troubleshooting a Mazak quickturn; what the hell did Awea do here ? Haven't played with Makino but in general, they all do some goofy crap. The only perfect one was American Tool Actually K&T was pretty damn good too, much better than that fanuc trash (I'm laughing but it really was. K&T kicks butt).

Tell yourselves whatever you like, almost every five axis built in China is a better design than a UMC. That's simple fact. If you don't want to buy one, then don't. But they are superior in design and construction. Almost every version (someone does make a mickeymouse type similar to haas) is better than that rube goldberg shit (and get a damn heidenhain if you are scared of off-brand electronics. Problem solved). Many styles, all better - most common is





but here's also 'unusual' ...



or 'sturdy' ...



but I don't see Mickey Mouse ... have to go to Oxnard for that

You know, all this pooh-poohing .... I distinctly remember when Jap stuff was crap (and it kinda was, in fact) but nowadays you guys all drool yourselves at the mention of Makino. You even love that fucking fanuc shit, which is backwards and upside down and totally illogical, because you've never used a real control.

That's fine but maybe you should learn something ? In manufacturing, the US ain't king of the hill no more. Other places make more stuff, and it's not because of "cheap labor". They have more experience than you do. All this "chicom" this and "chinesium" that satisfies you emotionally but ... A bunch of stupid slurs and derogatory names may make you feel good but when the bell rings, you've got a mickey-mouse piece of crap that you want to run up against something intelligently designed. I don't care if the things came from darkest africa, all you have to do is look. UMC is a big house of cards. (Which you can verify by watching the backwards-hatted tatguys who spent a year and $400,000 getting one to work. Now tell me again how bad China is ...)

Make your best choice, ya know ? But make it on fact instead of these silly claims.

 

[Billy_C]

What I flat-out disagree with is saying "for the price you can't beat a Haas" because it quite simply is not true.

Ok… ease of access to applications resources, service availability, workforce that’s already comfortable with it, accessory integration, transparent and public pricing structure, AND price. That is what makes a competitive product. The post wasn’t really about what machine is best for the price and although the price is a big part of the package, it’s not the entire deal.

Although I was hoping for a reply that proved some applications support exists somewhere, I thoroughly enjoyed your reply and happen to agree with a good bit of it.

 

[EmGo]

Although I was hoping for a reply that proved some applications support exists somewhere

What do you mean by "application support" ?

If you're talking posts, then China has just about every type of cadcam software there is (we will avoid that subject for the moment, but end result is, they have posts).

If you are talking manuals and such for programming and maintenance, choose heidenhain. (Those do look interesting to me).

In general, these days everyone seems to use fanuc-style g-code. Also not going to discuss that (except to say I hate it, prefer standards-compliant everything, unless there's a really really good reason "specials" suck, goddam gcc) but when people say "users are familiar" I dunno, it's pretty much all the same to me. Different seats but gas pedal on right, brake on left.

There's lots of places selling 3d models of most domestic machines which you can use in vericut or other verification software, they usually go for twenty bucks or so, so that's covered ...

So what kind of support are you asking about ?

edit: you know .... once upon a time, I won't say I was a jingoist but really really did think US machine tools were exceptionally good, and could defend that factually. (And put my money where my mouth was, too).

Pacemaker and Monarch and a couple others are the best lathes ever built, germany or no germany And K&T honestly does wipe the mat over fanuc. And Cincinnati and Ingersoll gantry mills, you want to make wing spars, better get outta the way, buddy, Ohio comin' thru !

But those days are gone. It's sad, but gone is gone. Snivelling about foreign equipment these days is just like a bunch of crybabies living in the past. Choose equipment based on what it is, not who is our friend or which language the manual is in or whether they are an enlightened 'democracy' or if they fricking sacrifice virgins to the fire god, none of that matters.

There's no point to "supporting" the US because we threw it away. Not us, the powers that really run things, but end result is, it's now 2023. Not 1978 no more So pick the machine that suits your needs based on facts, not emotions.

edit ii: there's something most people here miss, totally understandable because unless you have experienced it, it's just numbers. China has 1.4 billion people. That's just a number until you stand at tiananmen with a fricking million people around you just to watch the fireworks. Literally. A popular teevee show will get 800 million views in the first fifteen minutes it's on. The scale of things is beyond imagination, you have to have your nose rubbed in it to get a feel for it.

Anything you want (that's legal, at least) is available. Mazak wanted something like $6,000 for a simple change to an ex-fms horizontal, we got a tech guy to do it on his own time for $200. Lots of stuff they do is goofy but there's so much stuff .... and they are in some ways so flexible, anything you want they are happy to try. So yeah, you can come out with some weirdass contraption. Or if you know what's good, you can get that too. There's a lot more buyer responsibility involved.

Anyway, grabbed a quick shot from another ad on my phone (weixin is insane also, the whole modern 'online' experience is insane) ... there's probably hundreds of places like this, teaching programming. And their test parts are five-axis stuff or sculptures on a y-axis live tool lathe, not a hammer.

You can't find two guys worth hiring in the US -- if you put an ad up for "programmer" in Wenzhou you'd have 500 qualified applicants. Honest, been there, done that. (What I did was set up a real test, gave them a freehand sketch of a part and a running copy of wildfire and fifteen minutes. Best three models win. Took three days and we were a tiny-ass place in the country).



One should have a realistic idea of what an other place is actually like, imo. Judgements are maybe inevitable but they should be based on reality ?

 

[mhajicek]

What do you mean by "application support" ?

How about this:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=haas+tip+of+the+day

 

[EmGo]

How about this:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=haas+tip+of+the+day

That was possibly a tactical error

I can't today, over-ran my monthly data but monday, look out. I can put up 300 or so right away, is that enough ? And more entertaining, or more informative, instead of a beardo you'll get a cute girl or two. Also step-by-steps through various cadcam programs, part modelling, cadcam software features, on-machine demos, crashes from bad commands, different g-code lessons, demos on stuff like polygon turning across the ends of parts or y axis live tool turning, how to fix runtime operator screwups, you name it.

Ox won't do catbox tho, anyone know a better place that you don't have to 'register' for to stick up files?

Only one I have available at the moment is because it's funny ('sha' at the end means 'stupid') her reaction is what we'd all like to do at times

https://files.catbox.moe/hrgavo.mp4

normally the guy will bring her a model or print and she'll go through what he did wrong and show how to do it right. Step by step and you can follow the mouse clicks, even not understand chinese can figure it out. Same with the g-code demos.

Another series does g-code stuff, another one I sometimes watch is more on machine operation

There's a bazillion. If this is application support you'd drown

 

[Billy_C]

This is exhausting

Already posted a Haas link on TCPC

Matsuura (just a few pages). Easily available from Yamazen or Matsuura. Some generic Fanuc stuff mixed in with how it applies to their machines specifically.







Examples of something that needs to have good documentation to develop a good process.

Luckily Haas has post processors available for a lot of CAM platforms, Matsuura not so much. What is available is basic and needs to be adapted to the specific machine so access to good information is critical.

TCPC is just one example of many. Some applications related items like how does the machine connect to a network file system or how is live data accessed for integration? (Fanuc FOCUS and Haas API). Things that don't have anything to do with the post processor but on how the machine technology is "applied" is what I'd consider applications documentation. Just the other day someone asked about through table air on a DVF and within a day one of the DN experts posted a document detailing this.


You aren't being rejected exclusively because of antiquated believes that Chinese build quality is low. That's clearly not the case. I think your posts contain lots of useless information that comes off as mysterious behavior surrounding available support and resources. Everyone is saying "give us some information" and you are replying with "America is not a manufacturing super power anymore, China is"

I would be first to journey into the land of the unknown even with missing support documentation if there was a simple purchasing pipeline but add up all the deficiencies in the entire situation and it sounds like a real nightmare to figure out.