Hey guys. I'm new to surface grinding and would like your opinions on the best wheel to use on aluminum? I understand you can't interchange between ferrous and non-ferrous wheels. If you have experience in this area, I'd be very happy to hear your thoughts on a specific wheel for the job. Many thanks.
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Best wheel for aluminum on my Harig?
- Thread starter FFWD
- Start date
- Replies 29
- Views 1,767
eKretz
Diamond; Mod Squad
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
- Location
- Northwest Indiana, USA
I like a silicon carbide induced porosity wheel for aluminum. At any rate, no matter what you use it will require pretty frequent dressing. We'd need to hear more about what you intend to grind, how much material needs to be removed and what kind of finish you need to suggest anything specific.
eKretz
Diamond; Mod Squad
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
- Location
- Northwest Indiana, USA
Still need the info I mentioned to make any further recommendations. Specific wheel recommendations will vary widely depending on application.
For aluminum, one of those Desmond rotating wheel type dressers like linked below are awesome. They give an extremely free cutting wheel for roughing. I'd switch to a diamond for finishing though.
For grinding a cylinder head a while back on my Micromaster 818 I used a 46J SiC induced porosity wheel. Turned out pretty good.
For aluminum, one of those Desmond rotating wheel type dressers like linked below are awesome. They give an extremely free cutting wheel for roughing. I'd switch to a diamond for finishing though.
For grinding a cylinder head a while back on my Micromaster 818 I used a 46J SiC induced porosity wheel. Turned out pretty good.
Crap! I didn't see the rest of your post. It didn't come through for some reason. Forgive me for not mentioning specifics. Of course you need them! lol
Only removing about 4 thou max of 7xxx series aluminum on approx a 3" circle and want the best finish possible in doing so. Something similar to what 220 grit would give (or better). This isn't a heavy stock removal deal at all.
Thanks so much on your recommendation of the dresser. I'll check into it.
Only removing about 4 thou max of 7xxx series aluminum on approx a 3" circle and want the best finish possible in doing so. Something similar to what 220 grit would give (or better). This isn't a heavy stock removal deal at all.
Thanks so much on your recommendation of the dresser. I'll check into it.
eKretz
Diamond; Mod Squad
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
- Location
- Northwest Indiana, USA
Hmm. You and I have a very different idea of "best finish possible." Anyway, I'd remove most of the material with a coarser wheel and switch to the finer one only for finish grinding the last several tenths or half-thou. If you don't need to actually take that .004" off but just need to tickle a finish out you might be okay with just the finer wheel and a single point diamond dresser. And, I'd guess a 220 grit wheel would give similar to what a 220 grit wheel would do? Or are you taking about some other 220 grit process? But again, you'd really need to keep the material removal to a minimum to use that fine a wheel. You might just grind it flat with the coarse wheel and lap then buff it if you actually need "best finish possible."
Yes...best finish possible...with the resources I have. That's a fantastic finish on that lost-foam head for a grinder. Thanks for sharing. That tells me what a 46 will do on aluminum. However, I'd like to go up the number chain a bit.
4 thou was maximum amount of material. I was shooting on the outside. More likely, a thou. Changing wheels is not an option but I see why to suggest that. Too much time for the op and there are many to do. Coarse or fine...I'll figure out my workflow out once I start the job. 220 grit refers to what 220 grit sandpaper would leave for finish. Just need to be pointed in the right direction on wheel choice from the pros.
4 thou was maximum amount of material. I was shooting on the outside. More likely, a thou. Changing wheels is not an option but I see why to suggest that. Too much time for the op and there are many to do. Coarse or fine...I'll figure out my workflow out once I start the job. 220 grit refers to what 220 grit sandpaper would leave for finish. Just need to be pointed in the right direction on wheel choice from the pros.
michiganbuck
Diamond
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- Jun 28, 2012
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- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
ekerts.
A very nice job on that head. That is the kind of surface finish like on a head. it seems a mirror finish is more prone to blowing a head gasket.
Can you give more information? stock per pass/cross increment amounts/how you determine when to dress/coolat used.
I have never used that toothed dressers on a SG, so can't comment on it.
Buck
A very nice job on that head. That is the kind of surface finish like on a head. it seems a mirror finish is more prone to blowing a head gasket.
Can you give more information? stock per pass/cross increment amounts/how you determine when to dress/coolat used.
I have never used that toothed dressers on a SG, so can't comment on it.
Buck
On contrary Buck. It's a rainbow finish is what your after to keep from blowing the gasket. Especially in a high HP/boosted application. But I think we're getting off track here.
Conrad Hoffman
Diamond
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- May 10, 2009
- Location
- Canandaigua, NY, USA
All of what I do is for small instrumentation where fine finishes are the rule.
For steel: I keep a 46 white aluminum oxide wheel on the machine most of the time. IMO, the main reason for going to a finer wheel isn't finish, but the ability to hold a small radius in a corner. I've never found much advantage to a finer wheel than a 60, and they tend to burn easily. I have some finer wheels and they're used strictly for form grinding. Many/most people overdress. I use a single point diamond, take off about 0.0005-0.001", and crank that sucker across about as fast as I can. You don't want to go slow and you never want to make an extra pass with no feed. I remove about 0.0002-0.0007" of stock per pass.
For aluminum: I do exactly the same thing with the same wheel! The only difference is I spray the surface with WD-40 between each pass and maybe remove a bit less stock per pass than I would for steel. No doubt one could optimize the process with a different wheel, but that's too much messing about for one-offs. I've found no problem going from steel to aluminum or vice versa.
Avoid fancy expensive blue seeded wheels for small grinders as they don't perform well. Grinding conditions are just wrong for them.
For steel: I keep a 46 white aluminum oxide wheel on the machine most of the time. IMO, the main reason for going to a finer wheel isn't finish, but the ability to hold a small radius in a corner. I've never found much advantage to a finer wheel than a 60, and they tend to burn easily. I have some finer wheels and they're used strictly for form grinding. Many/most people overdress. I use a single point diamond, take off about 0.0005-0.001", and crank that sucker across about as fast as I can. You don't want to go slow and you never want to make an extra pass with no feed. I remove about 0.0002-0.0007" of stock per pass.
For aluminum: I do exactly the same thing with the same wheel! The only difference is I spray the surface with WD-40 between each pass and maybe remove a bit less stock per pass than I would for steel. No doubt one could optimize the process with a different wheel, but that's too much messing about for one-offs. I've found no problem going from steel to aluminum or vice versa.
Avoid fancy expensive blue seeded wheels for small grinders as they don't perform well. Grinding conditions are just wrong for them.
eKretz
Diamond; Mod Squad
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
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- Northwest Indiana, USA
Not for grinding with SiC. You won't get any rainbows that way. The "rainbow" is a signature of a diamond milling cutter. And that has nothing to do with the level of surface finish. Ra surface finish for any given head gasket needs to be in a certain range for best sealing. There are plenty of other ways to get there.
Anyway, if you want a 220 sandpaper equivalent finish you could probably get there with a 120 grit grinding wheel. Grinders give a little smoother finish with a coarser grit than hand processes.
michiganbuck
Diamond
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- Jun 28, 2012
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- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
I would question the rainbow mill finish. In order to miss the heal of the single cutter face mill, whatever the mis/clearance equaled the lead would have a concave to that same number. If the heal cleared by .001 then the lead would have .001 concave. Yes it would be less than the full cutter diameter.
If the cuter diameter was 20" and the cylinder head was 8" wide the concave might be .0005.. not a big deal perhaps.
The mill would certainly be safer than a grinding wheel picking up a slug of load, and then messing up an almost done grinding job.
For the last set of heads I installed, I used head glue/sealant after cleaning with carb cleaner. seemed to be a good assembly.
Back in the day, I had a jaguar head leak welded up and then finished it back to flat with emery and stoning. it came out near perfect but was a bugger of a job.
If the cuter diameter was 20" and the cylinder head was 8" wide the concave might be .0005.. not a big deal perhaps.
The mill would certainly be safer than a grinding wheel picking up a slug of load, and then messing up an almost done grinding job.
For the last set of heads I installed, I used head glue/sealant after cleaning with carb cleaner. seemed to be a good assembly.
Back in the day, I had a jaguar head leak welded up and then finished it back to flat with emery and stoning. it came out near perfect but was a bugger of a job.
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eKretz
Diamond; Mod Squad
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- Mar 27, 2005
- Location
- Northwest Indiana, USA
Thanks Buck. I actually didn't have to dress that one too often, those induced porosity wheels work pretty well. I don't mind swapping wheels so much - with the quick change hubs it's quick and easy. I think I checked the head and found that I was going to need to remove about .006" or so IIRC. Dressed the wheel and did several passes at .001" depth and ~.050" cross, then went .0002" downfeed and 1/8" cross - no redress. The wheel had settled in at a little coarser finish which was just about perfect.
eKretz
Diamond; Mod Squad
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2005
- Location
- Northwest Indiana, USA
Yup. Plenty more than that plays a role: The hardness of the material being ground, the traverse rate of the table while grinding, the stepover amount, sparkout passes or not, and more. The hardness of the wheel makes a difference too; you can dress whatever speed you like on a very soft wheel, but on a soft wheel that influence will be gone pretty quickly as the wheel breaks down, especially if grinding very hard material.
I've always found it interesting how a 46 grit wheel can produce such a nice finish; imagine trying to finish a surface with 46 grit sandpaper! The ability to rigidly hold the wheel at a set height and make many passes back and forth across the material make grinding a lot different mechanically than using something like sandpaper to lap or polish.
stephen thomas
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2001
Is the OP intending to use a surface grinder merely to polish the part?
Facing it in a lathe, or polishing with abrasive cloth will give a beautiful finish.
Or is there some dimension or flatness tolerance to hit/improve?
I don't have any 10 x 3 green wheels for my DoALL so occasionally ground Al with just a white, 46J Alum oxide. With through-the wheel and flood coolant (Cim-cool 95) it usually went fine.
Ideally, grinding aluminum, oil flood coolant should be used, but i did not do it often & there was nothing critical for my purposes except hitting some dimension ot flatness with reasonable appearance.
When i stopped using the DoALL (still never attended to electric issues) and began putting all the work (smaller stuff) on the re-scraped B & S 618 which only has mist i noticed it was necessary to pay attention to the wheels as they could build up a boogers of aluminum. My usual practice is grinding with the edge of the wheel (big downfeed, small increment) so i seldom got in trouble, but the potential is there. Keep lube on the work, and like EK mentions, use an induced porosity wheel if you can.
I would not like to be grinding AL with anything finer than a very open 60 grit with lots of lube and a very small cut.
smt
Facing it in a lathe, or polishing with abrasive cloth will give a beautiful finish.
Or is there some dimension or flatness tolerance to hit/improve?
I don't have any 10 x 3 green wheels for my DoALL so occasionally ground Al with just a white, 46J Alum oxide. With through-the wheel and flood coolant (Cim-cool 95) it usually went fine.
Ideally, grinding aluminum, oil flood coolant should be used, but i did not do it often & there was nothing critical for my purposes except hitting some dimension ot flatness with reasonable appearance.
When i stopped using the DoALL (still never attended to electric issues) and began putting all the work (smaller stuff) on the re-scraped B & S 618 which only has mist i noticed it was necessary to pay attention to the wheels as they could build up a boogers of aluminum. My usual practice is grinding with the edge of the wheel (big downfeed, small increment) so i seldom got in trouble, but the potential is there. Keep lube on the work, and like EK mentions, use an induced porosity wheel if you can.
I would not like to be grinding AL with anything finer than a very open 60 grit with lots of lube and a very small cut.
smt
michiganbuck
Diamond
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- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
The op said he was grinding a 3" circle part, not a cylinder heads. Stephen called it picking up a booger and that is what I fear grinding aluminum. You can be on the last pass, being on size and a booger can ruin the part. Some Al grinds better than others. I have a 46-j AO white open wheel that I prefer, I used to have what we called a popcorn wheel that was porous looking like popcorn that was very good. I agree with Stephen that a 60gt would be about the finest wheel I would trust/try. I have followed grinding with fine abrasive paper to go from high limit size to desired surface finish using my steel gage-plate for the backer, automotive wet paper can be good.
I have ground aluminum with full wheel skim .0002 -.0003 with taking a dress before every pass, and with the climb grind pass lifted off the part for a coolant wash on parts that had to finish at a size, and I have dressed with no take to skim the boogers off the wheel...and I have incremental crossed Al parts.
Some surface grinders have a better result with a going in, or coming out cross direction, it can be good to feel out your machine to see if your machine has the effect.
Stephen mentioned coolant flood and I agree that is best. When forced to grind dry heat swell and boogers have to be avoided.
Here is a video from Steve at Solid Rock :
Note, that he said undiluted coolant and he is dabbing it on. I have used liquid pink lotion soap 50/50 with water with good results..just thinking that hand sanitizer with it having alcohol might be worth a try (the kind feeling slippery would be best.)
I have ground aluminum with full wheel skim .0002 -.0003 with taking a dress before every pass, and with the climb grind pass lifted off the part for a coolant wash on parts that had to finish at a size, and I have dressed with no take to skim the boogers off the wheel...and I have incremental crossed Al parts.
Some surface grinders have a better result with a going in, or coming out cross direction, it can be good to feel out your machine to see if your machine has the effect.
Stephen mentioned coolant flood and I agree that is best. When forced to grind dry heat swell and boogers have to be avoided.
Here is a video from Steve at Solid Rock :
Note, that he said undiluted coolant and he is dabbing it on. I have used liquid pink lotion soap 50/50 with water with good results..just thinking that hand sanitizer with it having alcohol might be worth a try (the kind feeling slippery would be best.)
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jwmelvin
Aluminum
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2018
- Location
- northern Virginia
It may be worth watching Steve Barton’s video on grinding aluminum. He also did a short follow-up showing the loading of the couple wheels he tried.
michiganbuck
Diamond
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Location
- Mt Clemens, Michigan 48035
Good that we both like steves videos, but watching youtube can be tricky. Some/many of the videos give poor advice or leave important things out. I just watched one where the guy mounted a new wheel with the mount-up arrow pointing down. He likely doesn't have a clue what it is for...and he says"Da.Da,Da you hear that, it doesn't sound like a normal dress." Well of course it doesn't sound normal because it is .002 in error because the Mount-Up was mounted down. Ignoring the Mount-Up every time he mounts the wheel he will abuse his diamond and waste wheel.
Wheels can't be tight/forced on a mount so the manufacturer mounts the wheel that might have .002 or .02 (or more) depending on size with the mount-up pointing up and dresses the wheel, so the customer can put it on and it will run near true at the first mounting..Then as the wheel is used and remounted the hole gets bigger but still runs near true with each mounting because the Mount-Up is placed Mount-Up at each mounting.
If a wheel comes with not having a Mount-Up the experienced grinder hand will add a mount-up arrow...Oh, and regarding the Mount Up will better serve the balance of the wheel each time it is mounted.
and many youtubes don't tighten a wheel properly. I make a wheel as tight as I can make it with one hand on the wheel and one hand on the wrench, then set the wrench on a block and with two hands on the wheel make it just a tad tighter. That way if you have a poor day or a sore wrist or arm you double check that it is tight. (someday I will feel that with a torque wrench and post whet I find..
For a multi-scerw mount I try to make them all the same with a number of fingers pushing, straight wrist twist or use a torque wrench.
These guys who say that you can't shut down a wheel and restart without dressing because it may come loose/turn could never neve grind properly/safely. The wheel- to-mount-clearance alone could make the wheel move on the mount when grinding to break a wheel or throw a part off the chuck..
Wheels can't be tight/forced on a mount so the manufacturer mounts the wheel that might have .002 or .02 (or more) depending on size with the mount-up pointing up and dresses the wheel, so the customer can put it on and it will run near true at the first mounting..Then as the wheel is used and remounted the hole gets bigger but still runs near true with each mounting because the Mount-Up is placed Mount-Up at each mounting.
If a wheel comes with not having a Mount-Up the experienced grinder hand will add a mount-up arrow...Oh, and regarding the Mount Up will better serve the balance of the wheel each time it is mounted.
and many youtubes don't tighten a wheel properly. I make a wheel as tight as I can make it with one hand on the wheel and one hand on the wrench, then set the wrench on a block and with two hands on the wheel make it just a tad tighter. That way if you have a poor day or a sore wrist or arm you double check that it is tight. (someday I will feel that with a torque wrench and post whet I find..
For a multi-scerw mount I try to make them all the same with a number of fingers pushing, straight wrist twist or use a torque wrench.
These guys who say that you can't shut down a wheel and restart without dressing because it may come loose/turn could never neve grind properly/safely. The wheel- to-mount-clearance alone could make the wheel move on the mount when grinding to break a wheel or throw a part off the chuck..
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