Decent Chinese machines - which?

[frankychops]

I really don't understand this guy!
He was pushing and pushing for this Chinese POS
and the next thing you know he completely flipped
and started talking about buying a Chiron! He even
started a new thread about it. IMO it's roughly as
worthwhile as arguing with a wall.

That’s your issue. It’s a discussion not an argument. You know where people converse back and forwards.

I’m limited by size which you choose to constantly ignore as part of your ignorance.

 

[ChipSplitter]

Go to Belgium.
To the Haas dealer.
Ask him for a Minimill.
Measure it to make sure it
fits the door of your 400 year-old barn.
Write a check for $35K.
Live happily ever after.
THE END.

 

[Hardplates]

Go to Belgium.
To the Haas dealer.
Ask him for a Minimill.
Measure it to make sure it
fits the door of your 400 year-old barn.
Write a check for $35K.
Live happily ever after.
THE END.

FIXED IT FOR YOU

Go to Germany.
To the Grob dealer.
Ask him for a G350T.
Build a building for it as it is the coolest thing you'll ever own.
Sell your family's organs on the black market.
Live happily ever after.
THE END.

 

[ChipSplitter]

FIXED IT FOR YOU

Go to Germany.
To the Grob dealer.
Ask him for a G350T.
Build a building for it as it is the coolest thing you'll ever own.
Sell your family's organs on the black market.
Live happily ever after.
THE END.

I surrender.

I just thought I would try not to overwhelm him, ya know........

 

[frankychops]

Go to Belgium.
To the Haas dealer.
Ask him for a Minimill.
Measure it to make sure it
fits the door of your 400 year-old barn.
Write a check for $35K.
Live happily ever after.
THE END.

I sort of knew given your posts that might be your answer. A 'budget' haas machine with a 4000rpm spindle.

Thanks to the people that have said useful things on this thread. I've found two Chinese machines that i'd happily pay for, a used machine of good quality that fits the space(however trying to find more info on the actual machine!

 

[thermite]

That’s your issue. It’s a discussion not an argument. You know where people converse back and forwards.

I’m limited by size which you choose to constantly ignore as part of your ignorance.

Your ANATOMY may be "limited by size". Not that anyone HERE gives a damn.

"Buildings" on the other hand?

Well.. some folks would marry a 400 hundred year old barn.

Others?

Too many women. Too little time!

Too many shops. Too little common sense?

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

This is the equivalent of buying a vmc at harbor freight. It might work when you get it home. But everyday after that is a blessing

EXACTLY what I was thinking. Many years ago, dad bought a Chinese CNC. It was "ok" for the first 2-3 years, then, quite literally, it fell apart. Oil lines that were supposed to feed ball screws, and looked like they were, went - nowhere. Bare wires everywhere in the control cabinet. The list went on and on. It eventually died on the floor and sat there, unused for about 4 years until the auction. It went for $100.

 

[Hardplates]

At the end of the day I think everyone here has said something to help. This is a site geared to making parts and manufacturing. Most here either know or have learning the hard that a quality machine is fundamental to being successful at whatever you are doing and time making parts should be paying far better than time re-engineering readily available equipment. If you don't like what most have had to say, it's not that there is something wrong with them, it's just that you have simply come to the wrong place.

Most of the members here are very knowledgably and helpful. But they have no problem calling you crazy if you have a crazy idea. I think that's a good thing, I much rather learn from others mistakes than make more myself

 

[frankychops]

At the end of the day I think everyone here has said something to help. This is a site geared to making parts and manufacturing. Most here either know or have learning the hard that a quality machine is fundamental to being successful at whatever you are doing and time making parts should be paying far better than time re-engineering readily available equipment. If you don't like what most have had to say, it's not that there is something wrong with them, it's just that you have simply come to the wrong place.

Most of the members here are very knowledgably and helpful. But they have no problem calling you crazy if you have a crazy idea. I think that's a good thing, I much rather learn from others mistakes than make more myself

I think most of the posts have been useful. I’m not saying anyone is wrong, just that there’s other options, that’s all.

I was looking at something like this

Triple Tree CNC High end CNC and VMC machines made in United States

But with a professional controller and a little smaller.

 

[jm7905]

Hadn't ever heard of Triple Tree CNC before. Have you quoted their BOS VMC? I'd be curious to know the price.

It looks like they started by selling Chinese Skyfire machines and then moved into their own stuff. I guess you can't really get a feel for how much is designed in the USA and made in China vs actually made in their shop in Alabama without more info. Do you know if they're actually making their machines or are they more like a big Tormach? Have they posted a factory tour anywhere...I'm only seeing three videos on their Youtube channel.

 

[ChipSplitter]

At the end of the day I think everyone here has said something to help. This is a site geared to making parts and manufacturing. Most here either know or have learning the hard that a quality machine is fundamental to being successful at whatever you are doing and time making parts should be paying far better than time re-engineering readily available equipment. If you don't like what most have had to say, it's not that there is something wrong with them, it's just that you have simply come to the wrong place.

Most of the members here are very knowledgably and helpful. But they have no problem calling you crazy if you have a crazy idea. I think that's a good thing, I much rather learn from others mistakes than make more myself

Thats why I said- BUY. A. HAAS!

Seriously, you have great support in Europe (at least way better than the Chinese), they don't use slave labor, they have a decent machine, and they are legit.

Enough said.

 

[thermite]

Thats why I said- BUY. A. HAAS!

Seriously, you have great support in Europe (at least way better than the Chinese), they don't use slave labor, they have a decent machine, and they are legit.

Enough said.

"Great support" almost CERTAINLY also knows how to break-down their machines, get the core bits through narrow passages into a 400 year old barn.. and put them back together again, all properly aligned and fully functional.

Haas sure as Hell don't carve their machines from a cube of solid steel. That's a Moore or SIP Genevoise trick... or at one time SEEMED to be..

Haas seems to have found a way to Iron-electroplate rectangular soap bubbles and stiffen the result with powder-coated paint, by comparison? Kind lightly built.

But for 12 hours use a week? Should do well-enough. Helluva lotta folks runnin' 'em multiple shifts and eatin' reg'lar like.

 

[jools]

I'm a bit late to this party but it's been an entertaining way to pass an hour or so.

To the OP:
I'm in exactly the same position as your self (and in Lincolnshire too (sturton by stow)). Small garage, low volume high value parts and need something that's going to make me money. Currebntly been learning machining for 3 years and served that time building my own and owning mini mills. Do I regret 'wasting' those three years. Yes and no. I learnt alot about machines, learnt how to run them, learnt how to maintain them but in the end I didn't make any money from it and spent a chunk in that time. Would I do it differently, yep, with hindsight I'd buy what I'm about to buy right now. But as I didn't know the 'very little' I know now then I would probably do it the same. Catch 22 right there.

So noe we get to me here and now. I've made parts and have people who have already paid me to make units for them. I need something that will make me money without hassle. It's not going to be used all day every day and I don't even need most of the feature of mid level mills.

My choices were between Haas Mini Mill, Hurco VM5I, Syil X7.

Determining factors:

Space - Single garage 2.6meter high ceiling
Cost - Haas £23k delivered and set up | Hurco £35k delivered and set up | Syil £21K delivered and set up
Single phase - Only Haas and Syil
What it needs to do: Delrin parts with a nice surface finish. Which will do that? All three!
Models generated in Fusion 360. Do I need Hurco's program at the console ability. Not for 10K I don't
Syil Delivery 12 weeks - Not an ooption. I want to make parts now.
Warranty and parts - Hurco and Haas easy. Syil less easy.
Quality - Haas and Hurco - shit tons of people who've used machines in anger say they are fine; I beleive them. Syil - Horror stories all over the web; I beleive them too though the new owner of Syil UK has partially changed my mind on support. He is moving it in the right way. Can I take the chance that it's shifted fully when my machine breaks, maybe not.

So I'm buying a Haas. I'm buying the basic one with single phase option. No rigid tapping (added later if I need it) no coolant (will hook up a pump myself :-) ). Job done delivery in a couple of weeks and an engineer will set it up. 4k spindle. In my position (possibly yours to if your description of needs are accurate) spindle speed is not needed. I'm not a production shop. I can afford for my parts to take twice as long as the machine will have plenty of downtime. If I need more then it's a software code bought from hass to get 6k.

So for 23k I get a machine that can do every thing I want and is reputable. I'm even going to finance it reduce the shock headline figure into more manageble monthly payments.

So my advice. Figure out if you need the bells and whistles some are nice to have, some aren't needed. Then theirs only a few to choose from. As others have said if you go chinese without viewing it and spending time researching it (preferrably in person) you're effectively buying a used car without even seeing it let alone driving it! If you can take the risk and afford for £17k to be sat on your barn floor if it goes wrong then crack on. If you can't then your choices become narrower.

Also consider finance. It's cheap at the moment and if you have a good deposit and equity in the house every finance guy I've spoken to says it's easy. And I'm a sole trader having set up two moths ago so no trading history.

Where are you in Lincolnshire? One I get my Haas I may be able to do your prototyping for you at a good rate. Then you can see if there's a market without risking the capital :-)

Jools

 

[FORSUNCNC]

There are many decent machines. Do you have any requirements for the performance of the machine? Do you still consider machines from other manufacturers? I know a Chinese manufacturer specializing in CNC Router machines, has been focusing on providing high-quality CNC Router Machines and solutions for worldwide customers for 20 years. If you are interested, you can consult them: Jinan FORSUN CNC Machinery Co., Ltd.

 

[thermite]

There are many decent machines. Do you have any requirements for the performance of the machine? Do you still consider machines from other manufacturers? I know a Chinese manufacturer specializing in CNC Router machines, has been focusing on providing high-quality CNC Router Machines and solutions for worldwide customers for 20 years. If you are interested, you can consult them: Jinan FORSUN CNC Machinery Co., Ltd.

Whats the POINT?

That's like buying Japanese, German, or Italian machine tools, 1937.

Smart money has already shifted to sources as won't be as unpredictable as to costs, delivery dates, spares .. nor as easily interrupted TOTALLY.

REGARDLESS of what not-so-smart GOVERNMENTS - all "sides" - take longer years to PRETEND to "decide".

Human nature at work. Risk avoidance actually matters. Nothing racist nor "personal" about that.

Wise folks just get habituated to eating, reg'lar-like - fuggabuncha lying politicians.

We each have massive INTERNAL markets and resources. NOW we get to close-up and prove we can live off them.

And Sin Bao's treasure ships rot away at the docks. AGAIN!

Not for the first time, even "back in the day".

See trade with the Americas, "Warring States" period.

We are going to keep doing this s**t over until SOMEBODY "gets it right"!

And you think the GWEILO are the slow learners?

寄件者

 

[jason61c]

I'm a bit late to this party but it's been an entertaining way to pass an hour or so.

To the OP:
I'm in exactly the same position as your self (and in Lincolnshire too (sturton by stow)). Small garage, low volume high value parts and need something that's going to make me money. Currebntly been learning machining for 3 years and served that time building my own and owning mini mills. Do I regret 'wasting' those three years. Yes and no. I learnt alot about machines, learnt how to run them, learnt how to maintain them but in the end I didn't make any money from it and spent a chunk in that time. Would I do it differently, yep, with hindsight I'd buy what I'm about to buy right now. But as I didn't know the 'very little' I know now then I would probably do it the same. Catch 22 right there.

So noe we get to me here and now. I've made parts and have people who have already paid me to make units for them. I need something that will make me money without hassle. It's not going to be used all day every day and I don't even need most of the feature of mid level mills.

My choices were between Haas Mini Mill, Hurco VM5I, Syil X7.

Determining factors:

Space - Single garage 2.6meter high ceiling
Cost - Haas £23k delivered and set up | Hurco £35k delivered and set up | Syil £21K delivered and set up
Single phase - Only Haas and Syil
What it needs to do: Delrin parts with a nice surface finish. Which will do that? All three!
Models generated in Fusion 360. Do I need Hurco's program at the console ability. Not for 10K I don't
Syil Delivery 12 weeks - Not an ooption. I want to make parts now.
Warranty and parts - Hurco and Haas easy. Syil less easy.
Quality - Haas and Hurco - shit tons of people who've used machines in anger say they are fine; I beleive them. Syil - Horror stories all over the web; I beleive them too though the new owner of Syil UK has partially changed my mind on support. He is moving it in the right way. Can I take the chance that it's shifted fully when my machine breaks, maybe not.

So I'm buying a Haas. I'm buying the basic one with single phase option. No rigid tapping (added later if I need it) no coolant (will hook up a pump myself :-) ). Job done delivery in a couple of weeks and an engineer will set it up. 4k spindle. In my position (possibly yours to if your description of needs are accurate) spindle speed is not needed. I'm not a production shop. I can afford for my parts to take twice as long as the machine will have plenty of downtime. If I need more then it's a software code bought from hass to get 6k.

So for 23k I get a machine that can do every thing I want and is reputable. I'm even going to finance it reduce the shock headline figure into more manageble monthly payments.

So my advice. Figure out if you need the bells and whistles some are nice to have, some aren't needed. Then theirs only a few to choose from. As others have said if you go chinese without viewing it and spending time researching it (preferrably in person) you're effectively buying a used car without even seeing it let alone driving it! If you can take the risk and afford for £17k to be sat on your barn floor if it goes wrong then crack on. If you can't then your choices become narrower.

Also consider finance. It's cheap at the moment and if you have a good deposit and equity in the house every finance guy I've spoken to says it's easy. And I'm a sole trader having set up two moths ago so no trading history.

Where are you in Lincolnshire? One I get my Haas I may be able to do your prototyping for you at a good rate. Then you can see if there's a market without risking the capital :-)

Jools

Hi Jools

As you say, the hurco is about £8000(£32K delivered) more, without going into all the details, that pays for

Coolant
twice the spindle speed and torque
Rigid tapping
25% faster feedrates
Arm type tool changer
800kg of extra metal
Larger xyz(just! 457 x 356 x 356 mm)
The hurco control and conversational stuff
£1000 tooling voucher

 

[jools]

Hi Jools

As you say, the hurco is about £8000(£32K delivered) more, without going into all the details, that pays for

Coolant
twice the spindle speed and torque
Rigid tapping
25% faster feedrates
Arm type tool changer
800kg of extra metal
Larger xyz(just! 457 x 356 x 356 mm)
The hurco control and conversational stuff
£1000 tooling voucher

Hello Maximus :-)

Coolant - I Don't need, though am more than capable of adding a pump and coolant line. A manual swith to operate it, though I bet I could get an arduino to sense when the spindle fires up and do an auto start :-)
twice the spindle speed and torque - I don't need. 4k will cut at the speeds I need as I'm low volume
Rigid tapping - Don't need it now, can add it later though within a day if need be. If I grow the machine grows with me.
25% faster feedrates - Don't need. I do low volume high value, the machine isn't working all day every day so speed is low down on the list of needs.
Arm type tool changer - Don't need. As long as it changes tools I'm happy :-)
800kg of extra metal - Don't need. I'm machining Delrin and Aluminium and have seen the finish that machine shops get on steel when I saw them in action. It looked perfect to me.
Larger xyz(just! 457 x 356 x 356 mm) - Don't need and actually wouldn't let me put more than two of my largest parts on the table at a time anyway. The Haas can fit two on too. On the smaller parts the Haas can let me do more than enough for batch machining.
The hurco control and conversational stuff - All my stuff is designed on CAD / CAM so this is not needed.
£1000 tooling voucher - Don't need. I only need a few collets to get me started which will set me back about £300

Haas - single phase

That's just my needs though. Everyone else will probably differ.

As an aside I've heard from a few people that running these three phase machines from a rotary phase converter can cause issues. Not sure how true that is but something to bear in mind if there is a risk of blowing a board. Think it's something to do with balancing of the phases but again not sure if this is rumour or not.

Another thing with the Chinese mills is post processors for any CAM design you do. The Syil group on facebook has discussions about people still editing them to get the machine to work. The OP would have to make sure any Chinese control is supported by the CAM program he would want to use.

Jools

 

[Kevin Wilkins]

Try these: Optimum Maschinen They are made in China but parts and support are available here in Germany. I have a small analog mill and a small lathe from them. Both have given over 10 years of service and when the mill was damaged during a move, they had the needed parts in stock. I don't know about the CNC stuff, but I may fit what you#re looking for. Haas makes machines that are a whole other level of quality and service, I have 2 of those as well.

 

[Ox]

I am amazed that this thread hasn't been closed or deleted by now.


-------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[DDoug]

I really don't understand this guy!
He was pushing and pushing for this Chinese POS
and the next thing you know he completely flipped
and started talking about buying a Chiron! He even
started a new thread about it. IMO it's roughly as
worthwhile as arguing with a wall.

It's a "400 year old wall that can't be disturbed".....