Horizontal bending machines

[snowman]

Exactly...that took you two days. My punch press will take me a couple days too, and hydraulics will put out 30 ton at the cylinder, 60-90 at the punch....and I won't have more than about $500 in the whole project.....but if I was paying someone $25 an hour to do the work for me, and charging $75 an hour when I use the machine....that $50 surplus hydraulic cylinder would quickly be cheaper to buy new, at around 5,000 (ok, that was an 8" cylinder)...then you add the hydraulic pump...a 1 1/2" table with some precision machining, etc....and $12k is feasible pretty quickly.

BUT...there are levels of business that do make this stuff all the time. The fab shop I work in has a homemade roller. The thing is a piece of shit...but it was made by one of the employees in slow periods, where he was getting paid to either do that or sweep the shop....and really, what's the point of a clean floor when it's just going to get dirty in 24 hours again!

 

[DDoug]

Snowman,

Yes, I understand. Would your surplus pile include a PLC and a linear encoder ?
that would be awsome.

Now that JD2....that looks like somthing we would make.
While it's o.k.,..... there's something better.

http://www.simasv.com/eng/prodotti_...it_cool_1_axis_cnc&cat=digit_series&qi=1-8-44

As ussual, the Italians have "gone the extra mile" by burying the cylinder
underneath, just having a round post sliding, as the punch holder.

Having much more versatility, allowing the part to wrap completely around
the back if needed. Front too, as that die holder is same.

How exactly they keep the post from overturning (or even deflecting very much)
at 100 tons I would like to see.

 

[snowman]

My surplus pile? Yes.....although a straight bender hardly needs it. I am making a machine that is a cross between hebo's scroll machine and a diacro bender....no servo motors though....and my encoder is more of an index wheel....but it'll work.

 

[snowman]

And yes....their support must be amazing...as the bending moment at the base of that pin is extreme. Must be a helluva box way or something. Even the machining on those pin sockets has to be damn fine...as any slop is going to show up in the bend.

 

[Ries]

I have had both my Italian, and German fabricating machines apart, usually because a sacrificial part broke due to me pushing the machine to about 150% of stated capacity. And inside, they are very heavily built. My guess is that 100 ton bender has a substructure of 1" and 2" plate, that is holding a very large underwater chunk of metal- underwater, as in, how an iceberg is 90% below the water.
The 100 ton machine linked to above weighs 2500 kilograms- thats 5500 pounds.
These are machine tools.
I visited the BPR factory in Brescia, that makes the curvatricci angle rolls for EAGLE- and they had a staff of real engineers- they actually think about how they design these things. And appropriate parts are high carbon steel, machined and then heat treated, there are big bearings and industrial quality components all thru em.
Certainly, a lot of that Euro stuff seems expensive- and it is. A portion of that cost is import costs- I have found that Euro prices for the same machines can be 20% to 30% less, before crating, shipping, and customs are added in. But there is real money being spent on the design and build.
Imagine what they would cost if they were built here.

I have a set of Turkish plate rolls- well, really, big sheet rolls- 4' x 12ga. The machine weighs about 2500lbs, is 5hp 3 phase. I paid about 5 grand for it, in the mid 2000's, and, at that same time, the cheapest US equivalent was running about $18k.
Buffalo still supposedly makes angle rolls- an outdated design, but herky, and my guess is they would run well over triple what the Italian ones go for.
Chambersburg quoted a buddy of mine $125,000 for a replacement power hammer, (200lb, I believe) in the late 90's when they were still around. An equivalent chinese hammer today goes for about $20k, max. Given inflation, if Chambersburg was still making em, they would be over 200 large by now, if US built.

 

[jackalope]

A Bulldozer is horizontal, so long things dont fall out of it, and is usually open throat. And these bulldozer machines are able to take a wide variety of tooling- if you look at some of the setups on the above links, there is dedicated tooling for radiuses much larger than a press brake, which is essentially a single point bend, can do. Plus, scrolls, round bar, multiple curves in one bend, and lots more. One push U bends, as opposed to two bends to get the same result. Railing pickets that are 2 feet long, and have in them, all done in one bend, curves, sharp angles, reverse bends, and so on. Hooks, Loops, and other odd shapes. Special tooling for angle, or channel, or hex, or square bar.

I totally get this as I have been around these and some other large bending machines. I guess my point was that the machine in the link is nowhere near what a bulldozer is.

I would agree, one bend in 1/4" x 3" bar doesnt need 40 tons. But a two foot long profile in 3/4" square bar, all in one push, probably does. Another poster right now wants to bend S hooks in 1 1/4" round bar- a machine like this would do it.

I saw that post. I think a hossfeld style bender would be much more suited for the type of bend he was referring to.

Me, I like to have 3 or 4 ways of doing every job, because I inevitably come up with oddball materials, strange shapes, and unusual needs. I have angle rolls, plate rolls, hand benders, hydraulic presses, a power hammer, and various other means of bending things, and one of these would supplement what I have, and give me more options.

I agree 100% with this comment!! ;-)

There is still a heckuva lot you can do with a hossfeld, that, fully tooled, brand new from the factory, is under 3 grand.

Indeed. I would opt for this all day long.

I still can't get past the design of the machine in question and the cost. Then again, if I could afford to own one of everything, I WOULD ;-)

 

[snowman]

Indeed. I would opt for this all day long.

I still can't get past the design of the machine in question and the cost. Then again, if I could afford to own one of everything, I WOULD ;-)

Do you get that interfacing a computer to hydraulics, likely with a servo motor to control the stops, isn't inexpensive?

It's like a 100 ton press brake...there's really nothing there, it goes up and down, with a couple of stops and a vfd and encoder or servo motor for the stops....but that 12' 100 ton press brake costs what? 100 grand? (new)

 

[DDoug]

Do you get that interfacing a computer to hydraulics, likely with a servo motor to control the stops, isn't inexpensive?

It's like a 100 ton press brake...there's really nothing there, it goes up and down, with a couple of stops and a vfd and encoder or servo motor for the stops....but that 12' 100 ton press brake costs what? 100 grand? (new)

I don't really think they use a servo motor to move a hard stop. You'll note in the video, they
move the ram stop under full tonnage.

I think they (the jd2 and the Itailian units) use a linear encoder to watch the ram travel, then
simply signal the hydraulic solenoid.

 

[jackalope]

I don't really think they use a servo motor to move a hard stop. You'll note in the video, they
move the ram stop under full tonnage.

I think they (the jd2 and the Itailian units) use a linear encoder to watch the ram travel, then
simply signal the hydraulic solenoid.

In the link below that is what they are using. No way does this entire apparatus require servos, etc. On my bender, I use the same sort of deal however mine doesn't interface with the hydraulics. Yes, I realize that the interface would add to cost but again, my original point was the simplicity of the machine, design and cost.

Gottrikes plans With added CNC control - OFN Forums

 

[Ries]

The cost of any machine seems high, til you start thinking about what it really costs to build and sell em.
The recently revived thread about building a manual lathe in the USA has a lot of good points in it about this-
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/could-good-manual-lathe-made-10k-15k-232060/

Basically, if your parts cost is more than 25% or so of retail, you will lose money building machines.

I have always been amazed at the cost of Scotchman Ironworkers, for example- the current cost of a 50 ton machine is about ten grand. These are pretty simply built machines- virtually no machining, just cut steel parts welded and bolted together, with a simply hydraulic cylinder and pump. And they sell a whole lot more of em (economy of scale) than the yearly market for horizontal benders in the US would be.
But in terms of mass, weight, and cost of parts, a horizontal bender is pretty similar to a Scotchman 5014. So I cannot imagine a US company being able to sell one for less than ten grand, and thats only if they already have a full manufacturing facility, a distribution network, and a big product line to spread overhead, marketing, and insurance costs over.

A startup would probably need to sell a machine like that for at least fifteen grand, and still be just breaking even.

There are just so many more business costs besides the cost of parts...

 

[TFPace]

This thread has had plenty of excellent response. Finding a used horizontal bender here in the USA is near impossible. Western Europe is another story altogether, 5 in Holland and Germany and Switzerland have several also.

 

[TFPace]

Well I thought I would dust off this thread and see who has bought or built their horizontal press brake/bender. In just shy of two years I'm betting someone has made a little progress.

Merry Christmas, Happy Festivus, etc, etc , etc.

Tom

 

[adama]

I have toyed with horizontal, but for what i do so far, the vertical and rolls - pipe bender - diacro cross does all my needs.

Having run one of these styles though, if you need one you need one, the comments about a log splitter are spot on too, its not even close to what you need. imho Most of the time you dont need cnc control, just a accurate stroke control. If you want speed + accuracy your going to need something better than a solenoid valve too. That said, a Hp or 2 of pump and low flow rates a solenoid valve will work fine for this.

 

[Scruffy887]

Edwards Ironworkers had a 25 ton horizontal bender in their booth in Vegas last month. I liked it a lot, but have no need for it. But that has never stopped me before.

 

[mtlongshot]

Identify blue bender in photo

There is a company that sells another version of this, probably also Taiwan. Or you could make your own version, I have seen one or two on ebay that didnt look to badly made.

Charles


These used to be sold through Van Sant Enterprises but it is not in the catalog now...

Horizontal bending

This blue machine was manufactured by the j a richards company They went out of business along time ago I believe. I own 3 of them.