I need ideas for repairing the quill in my 10ee tail stock.

[jerholz]

I finally have my "new" 1958 10ee back together and running and I'm on to the next problem. The internal part of the quill where the tang on the Morse taper engages is worn to the point where it won't stop the arbor from rotating. I tried filling the worn area with JB weld SteelStik with predictable results. It didn't stick and the arbor just scooped it out.

I'm thinking about drilling and tapping holes from the sides into the worn areas and making flat bottomed inserts to engage the tang. I'm guessing the thing is pretty hard, so I'm not sure that will be doable.

Any suggestions are appreciated. It's hard to get a good picture of the damaged area but here are a couple of attempts. I have the 1.25" diameter quill.

Thanks.

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

If you have the taper attachment, you could machine the original MT2 of the quill to MT3. Then, if you need MT2, just use an adapter.

 

[texasgeartrain]

If I'm understanding you correctly, any tools you stick down the morse taper like centers, drill chucks, etc are spinning ? If so the problem is not the flat tang, or what may hold it. The taper itself should grip the tool. Not the tang thingy. Many tools don't even have a tang. The tang helps pop a tool loose when stuck on a bore, without mushrooming small end of taper. Tang can sort of "place hold" from spinning, but its not the true holding force, the taper itself is.

I'd try a MT reamer to clean up the mt bore and gain more contact area to grip tools.

Just as a rough check, put a thin coat of bluing or spotting ink on a tool and pop it in the quill bore to see contact area. And vice versa, ink in bore and pop tool in and out to see.

 

[texasgeartrain]

I think I'd use the fine one with straight, uninterrupted cutting edges. Use a wrench, no power tools. Spot check with ink every so often. If you get 70% or better contact area, tool won't slip, in a perfect world I'd like as close to 100% contact as possible. I'd love contact area out on large end of taper bore for better tool rigidity. Ebay search No 2 MT reamer, one particular result:

US Stock 1 Set MT2 No.2 Morse Taper Reamer Set New | eBay

Model: MT2 No.2.

www.ebay.com

If you don't happen to have spotting ink, use one of the wife's old lipsticks she doen't need anymore. Smear a thin, even coat.

 

[jerholz]

Thanks. That's great info.

 

[texasgeartrain]

A few years back I did the same on a different lathe.


As I began to clean it up, you can see how rough the bore was inside. And initially not contacting out on the end:


At the time I didn't have spotting ink on hand, and did indeed use the wife's old lipstick . In this case, I was applying it to the tool, pop the tool in and out and look at contact areas. I did not realize at the time that the camera was not focused on tool, so the pic is a little fuzzy. I stopped when I had about 70%-80% contact, the "no contact" area was gouged too deep.


May be hard to tell from pic, but my contact area was between the yellow lines, with bad/no contact circled in red:


Though final result was not perfect, I only had about 1/16" contact area when I initially began, so getting it up to 70-80% was a huge win for me, and tools held nice.

 

[john.k]

Boring or grinding is risky ,as the depth increases exponentially .especially if your taper is a bit off............with a reamer you can easily judge how deep the taper will be ,and stop .

 

[jerholz]

The reamer and ink are ordered.

 

[Mr_CNC_guy]

Of course, a good taper will grip the tool well and the tang is not necessary. However, get a little oil on the taper and all bets are off. Try drilling with a chuck in the quill and when the drill breaks through the taper will also likely spin. The tang is one of those things that should not be necessary, but really is necessary.

 

[guythatbrews]

I'm thinking about drilling and tapping holes from the sides into the worn areas and making flat bottomed inserts to engage the tang. I'm guessing the thing is pretty hard, so I'm not sure that will be doable.

Before my time someone drilled and tapped holes from both sides for flat point setscrews.
I think you'll find the quill is not that hard. If it is too hard to drill and tap, you'll have a hell of a time reaming it.

The tang is one of those things that should not be necessary, but really is necessary.

Of course inspect the taper and repair it if needed. But don't put it back in service without also repairing the tang drive. Don't let a slipping drill ruin your taper. Driving without the tang may be good in theory, but glitches arise in practice. There is a reason MT drills have a tang, and it's not just for that jaunty look. I don't think I've ever seen one manufactured without a tang. Toola without tangs generally don't have torque loading, such as centers.

 

[rons]

I worked it out on a Hardinge tailstock's ejector pin which does not have a slot.
Maybe you can get an idea from what I did.

The ejector is a cylinder about 1" long and 1/2" diameter. One end has about a 3/8" diameter cutout about 1/4" deep. With no slot on that end.
I made a new pin with a slot on one end and cut a shallow depth slot about 1/8" wide and 3/4" long on the outside of the ejector cylinder.
Drilled and tapped underneath the quill for a setscrew in the shallow depth slot location where the ejector pin moves back and forth.
The setscrew keeps the ejector from turning. I still used a tapered reamer on the bore of the tailstock.

 

[jerholz]

I've still been thinking about the tang drive. I really don't want to drill holes because I'm also worried about compromising the strength of the thing. There are already two big slots there.
I'm thinking about ways to capture the tang from the front half inch or so of the slots.

 

[texasgeartrain]

As part of solving the overall problem I'd suggest stepping back and have a re-look at what you want to do. Drilling with any engine or toolroom lathe tailstock is not ideal. On a 10ee, more so. What's the whole tail stock weigh, 50-75lbs ? Small diameter quill. . . the key and slot also not very large for keeping quill straight. How much drilling do we want to do with that ? And in what steps up, and/or how large of drill size do we want to go ?

Imo, on a 10ee I'd keep my max drill size at a 1/2" if using the TS. I don't want to wreck the TS or quill's key and key slot. If you get good contact on your taper, you'll never need the tang to try and hold if you keep your drill size or steps up reasonable.

By contrast, I have a 16" South Bend I'll never get rid of because of the TS. Its a power fed, turret TS. Its absolute beast mode for drilling. The turret head and upper body that feed toward chuck weight probably 250lbs. The two guide slots/gibs are probably 18"s long, it'll never stress:



A solution for engine and toolroom lathes for heavier drilling. Use either a boring bar holder or a MT holder on your toolpost. You should gain some rigidity, plus less wear and tear, particularly on that key and slot of TS quill. You can make or buy a straight shank for drill chuck for which ever boring bar holder you have. Or you can buy an MT holder. On a 10ee, I presume most are using a BXA tool post. A foreign cheap MT2 holder:

BXA-5 Morse Taper Holder # 2

Aloris brand has two MT3 holders I'm aware of. BXA-53 and BXA-53i, the difference is the body shape of holder:


Both of the Aloris brand have the tang slot if you need to drill like an animal . Not sure about the cheapo one.

Another potential upside. If you can get carriage feed rate slow enough, or step up drill size in finer increments. . .you'll have power fed drilling for the win.

 

[jerholz]

As part of solving the overall problem I'd suggest stepping back and have a re-look at what you want to do. Drilling with any engine or toolroom lathe tailstock is not ideal. On a 10ee, more so. What's the whole tail stock weigh, 50-75lbs ? Small diameter quill. . . the key and slot also not very large for keeping quill straight. How much drilling do we want to do with that ? And in what steps up, and/or how large of drill size do we want to go ?

Imo, on a 10ee I'd keep my max drill size at a 1/2" if using the TS. I don't want to wreck the TS or quill's key and key slot. If you get good contact on your taper, you'll never need the tang to try and hold if you keep your drill size or steps up reasonable.

By contrast, I have a 16" South Bend I'll never get rid of because of the TS. Its a power fed, turret TS. Its absolute beast mode for drilling. The turret head and upper body that feed toward chuck weight probably 250lbs. The two guide slots/gibs are probably 18"s long, it'll never stress:

View attachment 422249

A solution for engine and toolroom lathes for heavier drilling. Use either a boring bar holder or a MT holder on your toolpost. You should gain some rigidity, plus less wear and tear, particularly on that key and slot of TS quill. You can make or buy a straight shank for drill chuck for which ever boring bar holder you have. Or you can buy an MT holder. On a 10ee, I presume most are using a BXA tool post. A foreign cheap MT2 holder:

BXA-5 Morse Taper Holder # 2

Aloris brand has two MT3 holders I'm aware of. BXA-53 and BXA-53i, the difference is the body shape of holder:
View attachment 422250 View attachment 422251

Both of the Aloris brand have the tang slot if you need to drill like an animal . Not sure about the cheapo one.

Another potential upside. If you can get carriage feed rate slow enough, or step up drill size in finer increments. . .you'll have power fed drilling for the win.

More really helpful insight. Thanks for taking the time to write that.

 

[daryl bane]

I had to make a new oversize quill as everything was just worn out. I had two old worn out quills to look at. The oldest had the tang slots, but used setscrews on each side to hold the tang, the later one seemed to have a broached/machined step in there. Both had the depth engraving on the top, so I don't believe either had been shop made. I went with the setscrew tang lock and never looked back. Sharp eyed readers may have noticed that I engraved 1/10"s -.100 divisions instead of 1/8" or 1/16" (I don't remember) that was original, seemed to make more sense to me.

 

[texasgeartrain]

Additional thoughts with MT tapers and tangs. Over the course of many years most of those taper bores and if equipped with tang slot, the tang slot and taper bore get wrecked because the user is not seating the tool properly, then compound the problem by relying on the tang slot to hold the tool, which in turn wrecks the bore and tang slot more, and more.

I think a lot of guys kind of limp wristedly pop the tool into the bore, and give a little pop with the palm of their hand. And look what happens. . . it spins under duress.

With any MT tools, don't just push it in by hand. Use a finger to make sure no dirt in bore. Give it a pop with a rubber mallet to get seated on taper. When done right and seated, you need that 'through slot' Monarch's quills have, to smack a wedge in, to get the tool busted off the taper. Some other lathe manufactures might have a a short extension at the end of TS feed screw, and by fully retracting quill, that extension will contact whatever tool and push the tool out, just as you get fully retracted.

Consider "like" tooling, collets. Be it a milling machine or a lathe you are using a draw bar to truly draw tight into the taper. Does anyone really believe that some little 1/16"-1/8" guide pin is stopping the collet from spinning ? No of course not, the taper is holding, and that's why you need a hammer or mallet to smack the drawbar to get collet broke loose off taper.

With good clean and full contact of an MT taper bore and nice clean contact of taper on tool, properly seated with a bit of force, it won't spin. In fact it should take effort to get the tool out. And again, its why we need this through hole on Monarchs to hammer a wedge in to break loose off taper:

 

[rimcanyon]

Before my time someone drilled and tapped holes from both sides for flat point setscrews.
I think you'll find the quill is not that hard. If it is too hard to drill and tap, you'll have a hell of a time reaming it.

The original qull on my 1940 also had drilled and tapped setscrews. Worked well.

 

[guythatbrews]

The original qull on my 1940 also had drilled and tapped setscrews. Worked well.

Well I thought it was a repair but maybe mine is original also.

 

[jerholz]

Well I thought it was a repair but maybe mine is original also.

The factory person I talked to said that some of the early ones were like that.

 

[guythatbrews]

The factory person I talked to said that some of the early ones were like that.

Mine is a '53. It works ok. Repair or not? Who knows?