Older HMC Purchase

[RC Mech]

Fully aware this my be better suited to the eyes in the CNC section, but there is a strong business element to this.

Looking at a (seemingly) nice Mazak HMC. Model is eff-ache five eighty. I do not want or need search engines picking up this thread. Year is 1997, Mazatrol control. CRT…and some sort of questionable ethernet server I’m not sure works and will absolutely verifiy.

The direction of the business has changed from shitty tool making/mold work to production, which turns out we’re quite good at.

Machine is not too large but has a pallet pool which makes the footprint about 15ft x 15ft. Spindle is a 40 taper, I can work with that. Moving this thing doesn’t look too bad other than careful assembly and documentation. I’m running a solely vertical shop right now, mix of 40 and 50 tapers.

HMC’s are complex, I get it. I’m decent electronics-wise and repair wise as we do have Fanuc 6M/T’s and Fadals (thrust bearing eaters). HMC has over 100 tools.

I figure as long as the rigging and assembly on our end is correct, it shouldn’t be too bad. Anchors for the pallet stations, level all pallet linear rails, test and test again for movement etc. Level machine, re-level, check square and plumb on new foundation. Parameters, ladders, electrical schematics are must-haves.

Horizontals are a brave new world for us. I love the complexity- but is this the machine to start with? A real machinist’s machine. Dropped tools are a PITA, how about a dropped pallet eh? These machines Turcite or linear rails?

Reseller wants low 5 figures. That’s absurd IMO. I’d want it for very low 5 figures.

Head over heart, lemme have it.

 

[Garwood]

As a comparison to note about 3 months ago I was offered a slightly newer 480 with 25K spindle. All the whistles and bells, high pressure TSC, tool and work probing, 120 mag with a palletech pool. The whole shebang very low hours, ready to rip. For $0.

The 25K spindle and the 25' x 20' footprint killed it for me. I'm also not a really a big Mazak fan. If it could book it in steel I'd have considered making room for it, but I passed.

My first question is are you sure about 15' x 15' footprint? That sounds wrong. 500mm with 100+ mag is bigger than that size without the pool.

I would not buy an old HMC from a dealer. I would buy direct from the shop selling it. I'd want to trust I know the full truth of it's condition and know if some weird shit pops up- Like a couple years after buying it something fails and I find it's been bastardized or retrofitted with a different part- I can call and their maintenance guys can tell me what the hell they did and why.

I'm not a huge Mazak fan. Mazak mill design and build quality is a little ???? sometimes. Miles of cheap flexible conduit filled with thousands of the exact same color wires routed with zip-ties. machines built with lots of modular fabbed weldment pieces with slotted bolt holes. The design looks like engineering said "Yep, that's good enough to get the job done". Not a ton of thought put into important stuff like how to get the integral motor spindle out of an HMC.

I have never owned a pool machine, but I know if you are in the market there is some janky stuff. Palletech is at the top.

If you can get the machine under $10k and it's a solid runner with the travels, spindle speeds and pallets (and hopefully some stones you can use) then maybe it's worth it. You'll have 2-3 times that into it making parts. Lots of time getting it all set back up again.

 

[Ox]

As Garwood preaches to anyone who'll listen*, you can git high end used HMC's for a song most days. And I'm gunna add that the larger - likely the better deal as well.

Have you followed online auctions lately to see what they have been bringing?

Seems like there was a few that recently sold in GTA?



* Looks like he beat me here....


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[RC Mech]

I may be out on the foot print, pallet pool is 9ft alone from the operator’s stand. Probably another 14ft past the op. Depth is around 15ft with the coolant tanks out back.

Machine is in operation. The ops really didn’t want to get involved when I asked them Q’s. Large companies usually do not want sell their own machines but are happy to help the process. That’s the case here. Fully dependant on my either bringing a tech and running it thru the paces or DIY.

Seems they need room. I stand by the asking price being stupid, considering the rigging involved. I do need the lights-out capability. Machine doesn’t look quick by any means, but that’s not the point?

I know what Gar’s talking about w/Zaks. Some of the travelling column machines make you go “huh?”

 

[EmGo]

We found/sold an fh580 maybe ten years ago. It was about 50k, but came with a ton of spares - ballscrews, boards, knick-knacks, axis drives, maybe a spindle -- enough stuff to keep it running for a long time. It had been part of an fms and mazak wanted I think ten grand to convert back to standalone - we got the mazak tech guy here to do the job for a few hundred on his own time. Mazak also wanted several thousand to "register" the machine with a new owner, which we didn't do. They have done that before. Also, I had some questions about size and shipping which they never bothered to answer. I am not a big mazak-company fan, and this stuff people say about "Parts ! Service !" does not impress me. The changeover to standalone involved a few limit switches, removing a door and a few parameter changes, whoop dee doo.

The machine is too wide for standard transport BUT the tool changer comes off the side as a unit, making it less than 96" wide. Only took about a month to get that useful information out of anyone, too. It took two trucks to get it from Texas to a port - can't fit all on one.

The machine itself has been running ever since it got set up tho, making mercedes parts. So no complaints there.

I've always been a horizontal-type; after you get used to it you'll love it. Except for big flat parts, horizontals kick ass.

 

[RC Mech]

Do you know if that particular machine is linear or box ways?

 

[DouglasJRizzo]

HMC's can make good money.
Nice thing about Mazak is that the machine is supported, with both parts and service, and they provide training on a near continuous basis.
I think it's great for a production environment, and you'll find yourself getting creative with fixtures, workholding, etc. Go for it.

 

[Aejgx6]

I have a 400mm version of that machine with a Fanuc control. I absolutely love it. Traveling column sucks if you like to reach into the machine for probing and what not. I'd inspect the cabling to the column looking for hack job repairs and conduits full of coolant. As stated above, 10k max

 

[EmGo]

Do you know if that particular machine is linear or box ways?

Turned out this was an fh6800, took two flat racks to ship so good thing yours is smaller. Really fh580 ? That's maybe kind of old then ?

Both the one we sold and one we had in kunshan were box ways. The kunshan one was never much trouble, may have had a few glitches here and there but no biggies. Didn't get any complaints about the 6800.

If you aren't in a rush ? Makinos seem to be better built.

 

[RC Mech]

If you aren't in a rush ? Makinos seem to be better built.

Not in a rush. Makinos are the cat’s ass. I’m looking at the 8/5 pallet pool and thinking about the production. Machine is old, mid 90’s.

 

[RC Mech]

On the other end of the spectrum are two Haas HS1 horizontals for sale locally that the shops can’t give away.

 

[Ox]

Single machines with pool don't seem to be too popular anymore.
So if you really want the pool, you may want to keep looking at this unit.

More likely is to find 3 machines on an FMS, and THAT will take up some real estate!
But the price normally isn't too bad.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EmGo]

On the other end of the spectrum are two Haas HS1 horizontals for sale locally that the shops can’t give away.

I remember a few years ago Haas sold quite a few machines here. Went to a show today - my prediction : Haas is done in China. Everything else is now better, some stuff way better. Let's make that 'most' stuff.

I think you should go fms. Those are too cool for school.

 

[RC Mech]

That’s an upgrade, we haven’t even been given the opportunity to under-utilize a hori w/pallet pool.

I’m looking at all the verticals in the shop and a gantry loader would be slick.

 

[Garwood]

Did you conclude the HMC w/pool is a good match for your work? Or is it mostly a situation where this thing popped up nearby and you want to try it?

When I was considering the pool machine, the friend that offered it to me and I discussed how it could work for me and the reality was the pool didn't add any value over the HMC I have.

I don't need to run lights out. A rotary pallet changer and high density fixtures makes long run times and more than enough spindle up time for me.

 

[50BMG DUDE]

Hi RC Mech. Sounds to me like you are being played by a dealer. That machine (or one just like it) is being sold by Boeing and is listed on Ebay by Bidadoo auctions. There is a pretty high rigging cost to get it out of the Boeing plant (don't plan on doing it yourself) but other than that I think it is a no reserve auction. currently sitting at about twenty five bucks...

Just my .02 cents worth.

 

[Garwood]

Hi RC Mech. Sounds to me like you are being played by a dealer. That machine (or one just like it) is being sold by Boeing and is listed on Ebay by Bidadoo auctions. There is a pretty high rigging cost to get it out of the Boeing plant (don't plan on doing it yourself) but other than that I think it is a no reserve auction. currently sitting at about twenty five bucks...

Just my .02 cents worth.

It'll be interesting to see what it sells for.

I could get that loaded and into my shop for 1/3 of thier rigging estimate.

 

[RC Mech]

Hi RC Mech. Sounds to me like you are being played by a dealer. That machine (or one just like it) is being sold by Boeing and is listed on Ebay by Bidadoo auctions. There is a pretty high rigging cost to get it out of the Boeing plant (don't plan on doing it yourself) but other than that I think it is a no reserve auction. currently sitting at about twenty five bucks...

Just my .02 cents worth.

Saw the ePay auction, not the same machine. Good looking out though, thank you. The auction ended at $25.

This machine has a linear pallet pool. I’m looking at an HMC for the indexing rotary, 4-side machining and the long cycles. We don’t have an HMC and I’m getting interested in them. This or even “A” Mazak may not be the best choice for us but we’ll see.

 

[Speedie]

On the other end of the spectrum are two Haas HS1 horizontals for sale locally that the shops can’t give away.

HSRP or HS or HS1?

 

[RC Mech]

HSRP or HS or HS1?

There’s an “HS1RP” for sale now by the clowns that I mentioned in another thread, machine resellers. The machine was at $5k by owner, then $2k, now probably at $40k given the reseller that has their hooks in it.

The other Haas hori is an HS1, guy’s at $3000 and “need it gone NOW”.