24" Planer failing to start on 20 HP RPC

[JoinerCP]

Yes.... However, the dust collector is not a "pony". Unless all air flow is cut off, it is a "load", and will not produce much, if any, output on the generated leg.

Understood and I'm nodding my head in agreement. I have a short run and only two connected drops on my main DC line. They are connected to the jointer/planer. I leave those both open to try and reduce the load but there is most definitely still a load. The impeller is pulling air, no matter if wood chips are being pulled with it.

I'm seriously considering trying to have my high voltage motors rewound and trying to find someone who can help address/explain the control panel on the back of the planer. I'm going to rewire the DC for 220 since it's the only motor labeled dual voltage so I can pull that off the transformer.

There will be more 3 ph. machines in my future so I'm uncertain the best course of action.

Upgrade to a larger RPC? Consider something like a Phase Perfect? Are they robust enough? I believe they no longer support older models, that scares me a bit.

 

[MwTech Inc]

open to try and reduce the load but there is most definitely still a load

open lines to the DC is a load.
Close off all air into the DC to reduce the load, the fan will just rotate in "still" air

 

[MwTech Inc]

Did you ever do an Amp draw on the planer while starting?
This needs to be done.
Possible to disconnect head from motor easily? belts?
Start motor by itself. Possible mechanical issue with bearing in head?

 

[JoinerCP]

open lines to the DC is a load.
Close off all air into the DC to reduce the load, the fan will just rotate in "still" air

Huh? If I close all the openings, the motor will be working harder to pull air through the ducting. The load will go up right? Having it as open as possible is the best way to deload, right? I'm having a hard time understanding how the motor won't be drawing harder if all of the duct ports are closed. It'll be drawing air from gaps in the ductwork or wherever else it can pull it.

Am I misunderstanding something?

 

[JoinerCP]

Did you ever do an Amp draw on the planer while starting?
This needs to be done.
Possible to disconnect head from motor easily? belts?
Start motor by itself. Possible mechanical issue with bearing in head?

We did and there was nothing concerning but I can do it again. I didn't record the numbers. It is a belted head.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Dc will pull a load when the fan has air to move, with all the ports blocked off , yes, it will try and draw air, that's what its supposed to do, but not in volume
the load is less air has resistance to movement, no air going thru fan, less resistance on blades lower load.
Ex: take a computer fan and place a sheet of cardboard over the inlet, the speed will go up, moving no air.
Pull the sheet away and the fan speed drops , now it has to "work" to move that air.


Pull off the belts and do an amp draw then reattach and go again.
There will be a difference of course. What you are looking for is how long the amps are high while starting.
Then you can talk to your converter people and be able to articulate the load to them.
You will also be sure that the head bearings are not binding, need to eliminate all possible problems.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Do you have the wiring diagram for the planer ? Picture??
Going back thru this you have an American motor on a German machine....did someone change this out already?
A true German motor would be 400v not 480v........or was the equipment Americanized before sale?

Did you actually see this equipment run before you bought it?

 

[JoinerCP]

Do you have the wiring diagram for the planer ? Picture??
Going back thru this you have an American motor on a German machine....did someone change this out already?
A true German motor would be 400v not 480v........or was the equipment Americanized before sale?

Did you actually see this equipment run before you bought it?

It was purchased directly from Kölle in Germany, by the gentleman I purchased the machines from. 100% I saw them running at his shop, on the same set-up. He provided them as part of the deal. The only possible difference is incoming line voltage, wire ga from panel to RPC, wire from RPC to motor or breaker size. We didn't even shuffle the transformer taps.

I can scan the planer manual page, if one exists. I'll look tomorrow when I'm at the shop.

 

[MwTech Inc]

If....... all was working and startup of the planer was not an issue.....that sure narrows the issue to your install.
Wiring diagram not needed now..........

Amp draw of planer is a must now, uneven legs??
Also, amp draw of each section from planer back....before/after the converter etc.

4/cC12AWG 600v FT2 transformer to machines

Is this correct? you have 12 ga to the planer??
A 20 hp at the bare min needs 10 on 480, I personally would run 8 on a high load start machine.
if 12 was used , correct this issue and try it.

 

[markz528]

Huh? If I close all the openings, the motor will be working harder to pull air through the ducting. The load will go up right? Having it as open as possible is the best way to deload, right? I'm having a hard time understanding how the motor won't be drawing harder if all of the duct ports are closed. It'll be drawing air from gaps in the ductwork or wherever else it can pull it.

Am I misunderstanding something?

Called Affinity Laws. Applies to centrifugal pumps/fans, which I assume your DC is.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/affinity-law

Goes something like this:
- flow is a square of the speed
- horsepower is a square of the flow
- horsepower is a cube of the speed

So if you block off the intake or exhaust on your dust collector, load is just basically losses as far as kilowatts - still has reactive power due to the motor power factor which is quite poor at low loads. Much preferable to block off the intake on a fan versus exhaust. So I would expect the amps to be no more than around 50% of motor rated amps with intake blocked off.

 

[JoinerCP]

If....... all was working and startup of the planer was not an issue.....that sure narrows the issue to your install.
Wiring diagram not needed now..........

Amp draw of planer is a must now, uneven legs??
Also, amp draw of each section from planer back....before/after the converter etc.

Is this correct? you have 12 ga to the planer??
A 20 hp at the bare min needs 10 on 480, I personally would run 8 on a high load start machine.
if 12 was used , correct this issue and try it.

The planer is only 10 hp. The 20 hp is the RPC.

 

[JoinerCP]

If....... all was working and startup of the planer was not an issue.....that sure narrows the issue to your install.
Wiring diagram not needed now..........

Amp draw of planer is a must now, uneven legs??
Also, amp draw of each section from planer back....before/after the converter etc.

Is this correct? you have 12 ga to the planer??
A 20 hp at the bare min needs 10 on 480, I personally would run 8 on a high load start machine.
if 12 was used , correct this issue and try it.

I want to make sure you saw my reply. The planer is only 10 hp, 20A rating on the tag, which means it's hitting the wiring threshold. Do you still think I need to swap? And you believe I should skip 10 and jump to 8? If so, I'll do it.

The way it's currently wired, I have the 12 AWG running from transformer to a single box and there I connect to the 3 480V machines (jointer, planer, bandsaw). I'm not going to touch the BS or jointer because they are much smaller motors (maybe 2 hp and 5 hp if memory serves).

 

[MwTech Inc]

I have the 12 AWG running from transformer to a single box and there I connect to the 3 480V machines (jointer, planer, bandsaw).

yes, even if Nema says 12 will run a 10hp.....you have a high start load, hence loooong startup time and that's your trouble.
Plus, wire length will also affect your issue.
May be a bit over kill, but if I was wiring that....
I'd run 8 to the distribution box from transformer, then 8 to the planer. (unless it was like 5/10 ft away from dist box then might run 10.)
12 should be fine to the other two, IF, all the connections are ok, no loose wire nuts etc.
Are you using solid or stranded wire?
Use stranded THHN

 

[JST]

Nominal 10 HP draw is 14A (UL) for which 12AWG is OK. Startup draw is maybe 6x that or 84A. That would not be expected to be an issue, although a planer is often a long start regardless.

It's going to come down to how long the wire is, and whether more than one machine runs at a time. IIRC you only run one at a time, so basically wire length.

 

[JoinerCP]

Nominal 10 HP draw is 14A (UL) for which 12AWG is OK. Startup draw is maybe 6x that or 84A. That would not be expected to be an issue, although a planer is often a long start regardless.

It's going to come down to how long the wire is, and whether more than one machine runs at a time. IIRC you only run one at a time, so basically wire length.

That's correct. I don't think my wire is much longer than 10-15 feet before branching to 3 other machines. But I can run the test of swapping out the wiring to see if there is any difference. I typically only run one machine at a time but I used the bandsaw to help the planer start and it worked well.

 

[JST]

................................... I typically only run one machine at a time but I used the bandsaw to help the planer start and it worked well.

Adding the bandsaw (unloaded) would add some idler capacity. It would also draw more current, so if that helped, the probability is that there is not a problem with wiring, but more with the basic capacity of the RPC to hold up the generated leg.

The 20A 480V is equal to a 15 HP motor per UL standard motor draw specs. A planer is a tough start, because of the high inertia.

You have effectively a 22.5A source at 480V, and a 20A load. That's a pretty hard load on the generated leg. It isn't that surprising that it might need help.

What power is the saw motor? You may have mentioned, but if so I missed seeing it when I went back over the thread.

 

[JoinerCP]

Adding the bandsaw (unloaded) would add some idler capacity. It would also draw more current, so if that helped, the probability is that there is not a problem with wiring, but more with the basic capacity of the RPC to hold up the generated leg.

The 20A 480V is equal to a 15 HP motor per UL standard motor draw specs. A planer is a tough start, because of the high inertia.

You have effectively a 22.5A source at 480V, and a 20A load. That's a pretty hard load on the generated leg. It isn't that surprising that it might need help.

What power is the saw motor? You may have mentioned, but if so I missed seeing it when I went back over the thread.

Sorry I missed this question. What power is the bandsaw motor? It's not large at all. Something in the neighborhood of 2-3 hp. I'll look today when I'm at the shop, it has a very low amp draw.

I'm looking at updating my entire 3ph generation. I'm waffling back and forth between a 30hp RPC and a 20 hp Phase Perfect. I'm scared of the PP boards and long term support. Most guys who have a suitable RPC, run them for decades with only a few caps replaced over that time. But the allure of the PP producing a more consistent 3rd leg is enticing.

 

[M. Moore]

Unless you are running CNC equipment you don’t need a PP unit. A rotary will be fine for many many years. I ran my whole woodwork shop with a 20hp commercial unit for many years and as far as I know it is still running.
I had it made with an auto start for the compressor. When the pressure switch came on it started the RPC which then (after 3 seconds) started the compressor. If the RPC was already on then the compressor started as needed. I had an RPC start stop button wired to each machine so unless that switch was on the machine would not start preventing any single phase attempt.
Happy to provide more details.

Good luck,
Michael

 

[JST]

Ask yourself how much it costs to make the machine work with an RPC, vs a PP.

Then consider the fact that an RPC is almost as simple as a stone hammer, and you can generally maintain and repair it yourself, now and into the future.

The PP is "less easily maintained" now, and will be much less so in the future...

Choose based on how important those are vs a "more consistent 3 phase".

 

[JoinerCP]

Unless you are running CNC equipment you don’t need a PP unit. A rotary will be fine for many many years. I ran my whole woodwork shop with a 20hp commercial unit for many years and as far as I know it is still running.
I had it made with an auto start for the compressor. When the pressure switch came on it started the RPC which then (after 3 seconds) started the compressor. If the RPC was already on then the compressor started as needed. I had an RPC start stop button wired to each machine so unless that switch was on the machine would not start preventing any single phase attempt.
Happy to provide more details.

Good luck,
Michael

Very interested in how you had this set-up. I have a number of machines requiring three phase power and more shop additions in the future. I really like Keith Rucker's outdoor set-up and, if not that, then some manner of isolating the noise while still ensuring heat is dissipated from any enclosure/room (or built in fan/filter set-up just for that). I don't necessarily mind firing up the RPC when I know work will be done and then just letting it run while processing everything. But a dedicated switch at each machine sounds nice.

I'd really like to wire up the DC with either wireless switches attached near the machines or having some voltage sensing but with a minimum run time once it's spun up. I'd appreciate any additional details.