Employee or Robot?

[Miller846]

Good Evening, I am in a dilemma. I’m a small one man garage shop with 2 DN solution VMCs and at the point of really needing some help to keep up. Currently, I am working 14-18 hours a day, 7 days a week and have been for a long time as when I stop, the whole business stops. My work is roughly 50/50 small batch production (50-300 parts) and one offs but I’d say about 75% of it has at least 5 of the same part. I thought about either hiring a helper ($18/hour going rate here) to keep machines running while I’m gone and help with machine setup or purchasing a robotic arm to handle machine tending. Both have pros and cons. With a helper, they can do more simple tasks (maintenance, Minor deburring, packaging, etc.) but it’s an employee and there’s a lot of negatives to having employees as most know. With the robot route, it’s much much cheaper hourly, can run lights out, won’t complain, and can handle working in the heat all day (100-105 degrees) but the cons for me are only being able to perform machine tending, space is limited being in a garage shop, and it’s another thing to have to setup. I don’t have any experience working with robots so there will be a learning curve as well. For those with more experience then myself, would you recommend going the employee route or the cobot route? Thanks!

 

[gtermini]

Raise your shop rate until the workload is at level so as to not kill yourself, then raise it a little more.

 

[Miller846]

Raise your shop rate until the workload is at level so as to not kill yourself, then raise it a little more.

That would be ideal, seems like every time I try to raise my rate, I get outbid though. So needless to say, finding better customers/jobs is also at the top of my list but for now, I make up for the lower rate by putting out a lot of parts/jobs. An area I think both a robot/employee would assist with. Currently leaning towards the cobot option as i don’t think I can fully commit to keeping an employee on full time and taking the punches an employee could possibly bring would hurt the business more than help it. Not sure im ready to sign up for that yet. If I could have the cobot keeping machines running while im doing other things, it would pay for itself very quickly.

 

[alek95]

Automation is a time investment. Are you okay with seeing your productivity decrease for a few months before you see results?

Are the parts you're running even good for automation?

Have you tried other ways of making yourself more efficient? Perhaps there are some low hanging fruits that you want to grab before you make the leap into automatic machine tending. What's your current bottleneck? What's taking the most time?

 

[EmGo]

In California, because of the fees and paperwork costs, you go backwards if you hire one person. It works okay with a few but how to get from zero to a few without passing through one, that's the problem.

Our legislators are not very smart.

 

[jaguar36]

Two things, first what are the goals of your business? Do you want to always just be a small garage shop, or do you have aspirations to have a big shop with a bunch of employees? Getting your first employee is a big step and a big cost in time and money. However if you're hoping to one day have a number of employees you might as well start now. If you really just want to keep it small, I think having an employee would be more hassle than its worth, unless you get very lucky finding the right guy.

Second thing is would you rather learn how to program a robot or learn how to manage a person (and deal with all of the associated rules and paperwork). Personally programming a robot sounds really intresting, while doing all the nonsense of hiring and managing a person sounds miserable so I would go with the robot.

 

[EmGo]

all the nonsense of hiring and managing a person sounds miserable

I also hate interviewing and managing, yes indeedy, there's nothing like a rough day of interviewing and managing to make me hate my job

 

[SteveEx30]

If I had the choice, I would get a robot. But is your work robot friendly and worth the time to setup all the time?!

Or maybe a lathe...

 

[guythatbrews]

I hope someone with similar production quantities chimes in. Surely you've got to have very good robot skills for 50 pcs. A dumb set of eyeballs can still intervene before a big problem happens. Processes must be trouble free before a robot helps.

I also hate interviewing and managing, yes indeedy, there's nothing like a rough day of interviewing and managing to make me hate my job

Yeah. Some days it sucks. A good employee is worth a mint. If you find one at $18/hr good job! And give them a raise quick.

 

[wrustle]

I can tell you firsthand that thinking you can just place a robot/cobot on the floor and watch parts start piling up is the furthest thing from the truth.

The learning curve is steep. Not even kidding. We are a shop of 4 and production here suffered a lot getting our robot up and running.

You will quickly learn everything you thought you could do with a robot will not work, at all. There are applications where it's a wheelbarrow full of money to the bank followed by ones that rob you blind on the way there.

We have had our robot for a year now. Set up times are killer on a robot system versus a machinist setting up your VMC. Your process needs to be absolutely better than perfect if you have any expectations of running lights out.

Even just running during the same shift as employees out on the floor to keep an ear open for issues that could arise while it runs (and they do and will happen!) is something I prefer over running lights out.

Am I happy to have invested the time and money into the system we bought? Absolutely! When it's running out there, it's amazing to watch and it makes a lot of parts unattended.

Did it equal or exceed any or all of my expectations? Not even close..........

I still feel even after having this system out on my floor in production for a year now, we have only scratched the surface of what it is truly capable of.

Why you might ask? Time. It takes a tremendous amount of time to get everything set up and running perfectly. There is so much more to learn it can and will be overwhelming at times.

We're at the stage now where we only run 1st ops on all the parts we run in that cell. We have become very proficient at getting parts set up quickly (under 2 hours) and running for a day or two making parts.

I have yet to even figure out gripper systems or fixturing for holding parts on machined surfaces for 2nd and 3rd ops. Again, it all comes down to how much time you can afford to invest in learning and perfecting those processes.

You can make all the money in the world you want, but you can't make time.

Later,
Russ

 

[Garwood]

How the hell is a robot going to save you any time on 5 piece runs????

Most of what you're doing is setting up your machines. Now you want to add a robot so you can setup two mills plus setup a robot?

Hire a good employee, charge more or find different work.

If you're working 18 hour days you'd better be pulling in $50k a month. If not you should evaluate wtf you're doing wrong.

 

[bigjon61]

Good Evening, I am in a dilemma. I’m a small one man garage shop with 2 DN solution VMCs and at the point of really needing some help to keep up. Currently, I am working 14-18 hours a day, 7 days a week and have been for a long time as when I stop, the whole business stops. My work is roughly 50/50 small batch production (50-300 parts) and one offs but I’d say about 75% of it has at least 5 of the same part. I thought about either hiring a helper ($18/hour going rate here) to keep machines running while I’m gone and help with machine setup or purchasing a robotic arm to handle machine tending. Both have pros and cons. With a helper, they can do more simple tasks (maintenance, Minor deburring, packaging, etc.) but it’s an employee and there’s a lot of negatives to having employees as most know. With the robot route, it’s much much cheaper hourly, can run lights out, won’t complain, and can handle working in the heat all day (100-105 degrees) but the cons for me are only being able to perform machine tending, space is limited being in a garage shop, and it’s another thing to have to setup. I don’t have any experience working with robots so there will be a learning curve as well. For those with more experience then myself, would you recommend going the employee route or the cobot route? Thanks!

Honestly it would probably cost you about $200 a month to air condition a garage shop, and that is a high estimate. Worth the investment. Also ditto on the suggestion to raise your shop rate until your work load decreases. You complain about working 14-18 hours a day but also complain about getting outbid. Know your worth. Making 1 part at $100 is the same as making 100 parts at $1.

 

[beege]

I'd consider a temp. I used one fifteen years ago. I got lucky and found a decent one. Fewer paperwork/payroll issues.

 

[david n]

Hire a good employee, charge more or find different work.

If you're working 18 hour days you'd better be pulling in $50k a month. If not you should evaluate wtf you're doing wrong.

This ↑↑↑↑............really no way around it...............

 

[EmGo]

I'd consider a temp. I used one fifteen years ago. I got lucky and found a decent one. Fewer paperwork/payroll issues.

Do they have that for a reasonable price in the US ? China has FESCO, so the employee works for you like normal but officially, they are a fesco employee and fesco does all the insurance, deductions, sick leave, everything. They don't charge a ridiculous amount for that, either.

In California the cost of one employee is a huge jump, to the point where it's actually a setp backwards, but if you didn't have to do all that crap (enroll in workman's comp in particular) then it'd be a lot more reasonable.

When I was a kid I worked for Manpower a few times but that was a ripoff, they'd charge the employer $15 an hour but pay the worker about $3. Fesco isn't like that.

 

[MwTech Inc]

Efficiency.......will play a big part in all this.....the "lean" process .
Ever watch Pierson video's on youtube? Good stuff.
I've started to implement that in my shop, makes a difference.
Look into pallet systems.
Organization....if you are always looking or walking around to get something your burning time....fix that.
Step back, take your blinders off and look at your shop as if it belonged to someone else, now pick it apart and fix it.

Find a person.......you're not ready for a robot.....you need help with a lot more than putting a part in the machine.

 

[Ox]

I would explore the possibilities of hiring a retired gent to help part time.
Preferably a neighbor?
Keep in mind, that an employee in a garage shop needs to use your family bathroom.
This is as uncomfortable for them as it is you.
Now if you are rural and you have an oak tree out back, then not nearly the issue, but ...

Still, I would look for some part time help that is either retired, or looking for O/T work that they are not offered at their other job.

The bot may be somewhat valuable on the 300's, but diminishing returns for sure as the volume drops from there.

And like Wruss said - and I fully believe this - that Opp1's are by far the easiest to set for low volume.


------------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[kustomizer]

In many cases it is possible to streamline the way you setup and or run the work. I found that making fixtures that swap quick and easy combined with tooling dedicated to repeat jobs eliminated most of my setup time.
I have many that I can now go from one type of part to another in just a few minutes then I went to work on making my cycles longer so I could do other things while the machine runs. Double lock vises help, sometimes I add jaws to them making them quad lock vises for small parts.

 

[Buh Dunk Uh Dunk]

Invest in yourself by cutting down on low paying work. Your bank account will look the same regardless.

Hire an intern to sweep the floors.

 

[Ries]

I have had employees, both part and full time, since the 80s. I could never have done even a fraction of the work I have done without employees. Most of the people who tell you how bad employees are have never actually had them. Its easier than ever to manage the payroll and taxes, quickbooks payroll will actually calculate and pay your employer taxes. I always hire by calling the local trades programs at community colleges ( we have 3 within 60 miles) and hiring who the instructors recommend. Yup, its work hiring and being a boss, and nope, one employee will not do as much as you can do. But it has been worth it for me, and I am healthier and will live longer than if I had lied to myself and told me I could do everything.