Employee or Robot?

[wheelieking71]

You just can't doo life alone well.
Everyone needs a good wing-man.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I have an amazing wing woman. And she is a bad-ass! to be honest, she would rather not have to come out here and run parts. But, when I cant keep up, she is right there. She also does all the admin except HR. She hasnt had to come out in a long time because I've been slower than a snail with work for quite a while. But.........
It's kinda neat we can post pics again, LOL. I was one of those peeps that couldnt towards the end of the old site.

 

[Donkey Hotey]

Wrong! You haven't covered marketing, sales, shipping and customer service. I'm not saying retail isn't where the big money is. But, the point at which it becomes profitable (and less work) is quite high. Most cases the time spent covering the things I mentioned will easily cover time spent running parts. So it puts a guy in the same boat! Or worse, usually much worse judging from the situations I've witnessed. I would rather be at the machine myself.

Yes, that's very true. The bottom line is that as a machine-shop-only, you're creating ongoing value for someone else. Design and self manufacturing is not for everyone. Neither is being a job shop. Everyone has to find what they're good at.

The OP mentioned his own products. Pulling from Jay Pierson's videos, since he's also got products we all understand: he started making mountain bike parts on a mini mill in his dad's garage. He did job shop stuff too. Not sure where he was going to go. He eventually had to design his own hold down fixture for some work he was doing. That fixture is what took off. His talent for designing things that fixed his own problems is the basis of his business.

Everything that is Haas Automation is only 40 years old. I first toured the factory in Oxnard 19 years ago. They used to offer the three-day control training for So Cal at the factory. They already had a million square feet and were pumping out 800ish machines a month, inside of 20 years. That all started in the family job shop with a Yuasa indexer and a hobby computer. I once had a brochure that was still branded as Haas Brothers. Wish I still had it because I didn't realize how short a time it was branded that way. If you want a laugh, look up the address on the bottom of the brochure and try to wrap your brain around going from that to a million square feet.

 

[LOTT]

Wrong! You haven't covered marketing, sales, shipping and customer service. I'm not saying retail isn't where the big money is. But, the point at which it becomes profitable (and less work) is quite high. Most cases the time spent covering the things I mentioned will easily cover time spent running parts. So it puts a guy in the same boat! Or worse, usually much worse judging from the situations I've witnessed. I would rather be at the machine myself.

Yeah, but...Don't you as a job shop have to do a certain amount of marketing, sales, shipping, and customer service? It's a different dynamic, but still takes time.

I think the bar to entry on job shop work is probably higher than a lot of self designed products. You need a wider range of tooling, workholding, and metrology to take on whatever comes in the door. For example, six gauge pins (three go/no go setups) would be all I ever need for our line.

Also, I suspect you true job-shoppers have to be better programmers than I am. If I run into a problem I'll revamp the design- no 2" deep 1/16 radius inside corner naround here.

 

[wheelieking71]

Yes, that's very true. The bottom line is that as a machine-shop-only, you're creating ongoing value for someone else. Design and self manufacturing is not for everyone. Neither is being a job shop. Everyone has to find what they're good at.

The OP mentioned his own products. Pulling from Jay Pierson's videos, since he's also got products we all understand: he started making mountain bike parts on a mini mill in his dad's garage. He did job shop stuff too. Not sure where he was going to go. He eventually had to design his own hold down fixture for some work he was doing. That fixture is what took off. His talent for designing things that fixed his own problems is the basis of his business.

Everything that is Haas Automation is only 40 years old. I first toured the factory in Oxnard 19 years ago. They used to offer the three-day control training for So Cal at the factory. They already had a million square feet and were pumping out 800ish machines a month, inside of 20 years. That all started in the family job shop with a Yuasa indexer and a hobby computer. I once had a brochure that was still branded as Haas Brothers. Wish I still had it because I didn't realize how short a time it was branded that way. If you want a laugh, look up the address on the bottom of the brochure and try to wrap your brain around going from that to a million square feet.

View attachment 403685

You have apparently never had to install, and true a Pierson Roto-Vise?! (I've had three of them not counting the first POS I sent back) His mounting design is terrible at best.
And I, as an experienced CNC machinist in every aspect from pushing buttons to owner, Including design and engineering, know why.
When I put two in a Brother pallet machine with 4ths on either side, I made my own adapters to proper tolerances, and ditched his, immediately.
Those two bolted straight on, truer than any of the other times I installed one on a haas rotary. His parts in the system are high quality. Tolerance on the mounting parts is dead nuts. They are great vises (for 1st OP, and some low tolerance 2nd OP). It is just a retarded mounting system, for all the wrong reasons. And then, he tried to tell me I was wrong about his "system". (knowing how long I have been doing this, comparatively to how long he has been at it). Justify his "system". And measure a vise body on his plate, and send me a video of the process to prove his findings. He was also sure to tell me how much his fancy-pants latest greatest whiz-bang digital Mitutoyo height gage cost, SMDH, LOL.
I'll put it this way: it is kind of like an adjust true chuck on a lathe (but not at the same time). Then he slipped up and told me he once had a guy from overseas that tried to install one an old beat up rotary that the centering spud wouldn't go in. At that point the light-bulb came on! Thats all I'm gonna say.

I actually like the guy. I'm not slamming him as a paerson. I'm sure he is a great dude. I just disagree with that stupid system 100%.
And the fact that he refused to listen when I tried to explain that the condition of other peoples tools is NOT his problem. Like I said, great stand-up guy.
I absolutely hated arguing with him. He is hard not to like, LOL. I don't mind spending my money on his stuff at all.
Great vise.Really great vise actually! Huge increse in throughput on the right parts. Just dont try to hold less than .005" on 2nd/3rd OP work. And once you pull pocketed soft jaws, toss em. They will never go back on the same. Stupid mounting. But, If I needed another, one I wouldn't hesitate to buy.

I made my adapters to .0003" under the rotary bore size. And concentricity is dead front/back. I bolted them up. And everything on the vise body to the machine was well under .004". Better than I could ever bump one in with his system in a haas. I almost sent him a video stating "I told you so", LOL. But I let it go.

Prolly seems like I'm arguing with you as well, HAHAHA. I'm not. Just sharing experiences.

 

[wheelieking71]

Yeah, but...Don't you as a job shop have to do a certain amount of marketing, sales, shipping, and customer service? It's a different dynamic, but still takes time.

I think the bar to entry on job shop work is probably higher than a lot of self designed products. You need a wider range of tooling, workholding, and metrology to take on whatever comes in the door. For example, six gauge pins (three go/no go setups) would be all I ever need for our line.

Also, I suspect you true job-shoppers have to be better programmers than I am. If I run into a problem I'll revamp the design- no 2" deep 1/16 radius inside corner naround here.

My case is different! Just like you said. Different dynamic I will never deny that I have been very, very fortunate when it comes to work (in the past). I never really had to go find it. It found me. Which is a good thing! Because I am NOT! a salesman. Customer service is easy for me. I just try my best not to screw up. And if I do? I fix it immediately. That pretty much covers it. An example. I had an endmill pull out a little while back and cut a pocket too deep on about 1,000 parts. It rendered them useless. Customer was out of stock, and needed them bad. Knowing what the pocket was for, and its function (it got an O-ring in it to stop vibration, take up slop, and provide a smooth but tight rotation to the mating part) I immediatel blurted out: "Can we put a shim under the O-ring?!" He said sure, but where the hell are we gonna get them? I found em, and red-labeled them ASAP. He had them withing 24hrs of discovering the problem. That is really the only way to handle something like that. But, I have known and seen so many guys who would get all bent out of shape. And/or give excuses. And say "I'll get to it as fast as I can". Hell, I've even seen guys simply let a customer go over a situation like that because they don't want the finantial loss of fixing their screw up! Blows my mind.

BUT! I'm picking up scraps lately for work. I might actually have to dust off some decent clothes, And go do my least favorite thing in the world. Leave the shop to talk to people, HAHAHA

 

[Donkey Hotey]

You have apparently never had to install, and true a Pierson Roto-Vise?! (I've had three of them not counting the first POS I sent back) His mounting design is terrible at best.

You would be absolutely correct. I've never purchased any of his products, nor have I used them at anyone else's shop. I do have to wonder what's going on though. If we believe his videos, he's using his own products in the manufacturing of his products. He has to have run into the same problems.

The part I find fascinating about the channel is how he managed the fast growth of the business, the demand of the market and having to do it within southern California. Watch his videos about the simple ways he handles raw material inventory, reordering, how they stock it, how they inventory finished parts, how their process triggers new production, how orders are filled, how they schedule the machines through a rolling two-week window, etc, etc. Pick and choose the ideas you like for your own business.

The whole reason I'm here is to spitball ideas in discussions exactly like this. He's not without mistakes (are any of us?) but, he is kicking ass on a bunch of fronts. His business model won't work for everyone but, I've picked up a bunch of stuff watching his videos.