Looking for help with Sargent Hand Plane

[M.B. Naegle]

Not sure if this is outside of the wheelhouse for this sub-forum but I'll give it a shot. I'm not on any hand-woodworking forums.

My late dad had a collection of hand planes, some for the shelf but most he used at some point, and I've been going through the lot trying to divide it between a couple of his woodworking tool sets, dividing the horde for future posterity. My woodworking skills have never been the greatest but I'm taking the opportunity to learn and get ready for current and future projects. He had one Sargent #408 plane that was one of his working tools and had become a little rough, so I started with it. Sometime recently he had taken a bunch of planes apart to sharpen the blades but with his declining health and mental focus I think he might have mixed and lost some pieces. I think I have this one sorted and so far just had to make a replacement brass nut for one of the front handles, which was a weird #12-24 thread that I was fortunate to have a tap for, but now the lever cap screw isn't wanting to go in it's hole, though I don't see any damage between the two. I'm measuring it as a 9/32-24 but does any one know what thread Sargent used for it to double check me on? I don't have a tap in that size to chase the threads out of the frog.

I don't think any of these planes are particularly valuable and will cost more in time and replacement parts then they are worth, but IMO it's that time of the century for them to get sorted out so my kids/grandkids/great-grandkids can have some sentimental tools.

 

[henrya]

Pictures would be helpful.
It seems possible you have the wrong screw?

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Here are some pics after the cleanup. It very well could be the wrong screw and I'm going to check the other planes and see if there's another with a similar sized screw. The others are mostly all Stanleys or unbranded wood bodied planes. It feels like the screw is a 9/32-24 and the screw is the same but perhaps a proprietary size a hair under 9/32? Something of that nature. I ordered a 9/32-24 tap but am hesitant to run it through the hole if it actually is an oddball thread.

 

[rons]

Lever cap screw 9/32-24. I would make one. A small slit-cutting saw would cut the head.
Otherwise there are a ton of people who mess with planes and parts.

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Hex Socket Replacement Screws: Vintage Stanley Bedrock Version set upgrades the five adjustment screws on your Vintage Stanley Bedrock bevel down bench planes. Find out more at RobCosman.com.

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Stanley Lever Cap Screw No. 3 4 5 6 7 Plane Blade Iron Screw Bailey Plane Part | eBay

Stanley Plane Iron/Lever Cap Screw for No. 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 Planes. Fits Stanley Bench Planes No. 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and many others such as models 12-003, 12-004 12-005 and 12-025. Overall Length: 1-1/16" Including the screw Head (See Photos).

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[stephen thomas]

Not suggesting you force anything -
Generally, those lever cap screws are meant to be a snug fit so they more or less hold position after being initially set for tension on the cap.
After that, you want them to stay in place when the cap is adjusted, or is removed for normal blade ("iron") sharpening.

It would be interesting to see the collection.

Regarding your note about value, the Auto-set versions are worth more than run-of-the-mill bench planes.

Sargent No. 708 Auto-Set Smooth Plane

Sargent No. 700 Series “Auto-Set” Iron Bench Plane as illustrated in the Sargent Planes catalog of 1916. Sargent V.B.M Adjustable Iron Planes Patented January 12, 1915. All Tools bearin…

www.sargent-planes.com

Any special purpose plane except the basic rabbet plane is probably worth "something" and some are fairly valuable, such as the "ladybug" rabbet planes, if they are complete, with no broken castings.

Sargent No. 1508 Bull-Nose Rabbet Plane

Sargent No. 1508 Bull-Nose Rabbet Plane as illustrated in the Sargent Planes catalog of 1918. Adjustable Iron Bull-Nose Planes. Patented June 3, 1914. Rabbet Planes, without Fence and Depth Gauge. …

www.sargent-planes.com

Rare SARGENT LADYBUG No. 1508 1/2 Rabbet Plane Fine & Complete - EXCELSIOR 105000 - AS OF NOV 4

Crisp and fine. No issues. 1 x 5 1/2 inches. 90% of its original nickel remains. Ca. 1916.41.

www.jimbodetools.com

Sargent planes are generally somewhat better made than Stanley planes, although any individual plane of similar model between them is a toss-up based on current condition.

IIRC, Sargent became ascendant sometime in the 1920's when union construction labor notified members that Stanley was building a new plant - and only hiring non-union crews. So working carpenters, at least union members, tended to boycott Stanley products.

(This might be sort of ironic, Sargent was strongly anti-union for factory labor in the years before WW1. Maybe something changed in their labor practice by the 1920's or maybe is was considered at least a good place to work? Stanley factories operated under their famous subcontractor system, where the heads of various departments essentially rented space and machinery in the Stanley plant, but were legally only subcontractors based on performance. The production workers themselves worked for the subcontractor, not Stanley Co. OTOH, that was not unusual in those days. )

smt

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Thanks for the replies. I'll let you know what I find when I finish checking the other planes.

For the most part, I'm hogging a lot of the collection for myself at home and I want to gift some pieces to friends of his, but I'm also reassembling a set of tools my dad used when he worked in Hollywood in the 70's and 80's. He was a go-getter picking up carpentry and general labor jobs on any set he could, but he quickly learned that if he didn't have tools with him when he asked for work, the set foreman wouldn't hold a place for him. He welded a DIY trailer hitch to his bicycle and outfitted a wood tool chest to be towed behind it and was able to find a lot of work that way. He eventually found his specialty using his leatherworking skills in props and special effects work, but I have his old bike in the attic and his towable tool box is in my Mom's garage. Over the years his collection grew to a whole shop and that's blended in with our present family business, but any time I find one of his wood tools with his name etched into it, and especially if it had his old Union number etched into it (he hated Union's but it was pretty much required in that job), it goes to that tool set. He used had saws, planes, braces, etc. as cordless tools were still cutting edge or non-existent at that time, but he bought a few Makita cordless drills (still have a few of those old long battery 9.6 volt drills) when they came out and a Makita power plane, though for quick work it didn't makes sense to waste time running extension cords across the jobsite and he still used the old hand planes when he could.

This was a quick one for today. A little old Stanley 9 1/2 palm plane with the adjustable mouth (not sure of the age). Got cleaned of it's dust and paint specs and the old black finish was good enough to save. Sharpened it up and it's ready to go back to work.


One of the next one's I want to tackle (or at least get started on) is what I think is an old K.C. Simmons K6 Jointer plane. It's usable, but the top part of the frog is broken off, I think negating the side to side blade adjustment, so I'm going to be on the lookout for some parts for that. I think the back handle is missing a chunk too.

 

[stephen thomas]

Almost any quality adjustable throat block plane is going to see more use than most any single plane in your arsenal, unless you are almost completely a benchworker, in which cast the 408 might get a bit more use.

Re: # 408, FWIW, the bedding surface of a frog (for the blade) should not have paint on it.
Beyond that, there can be arguments about how flat to scrape that surface, or file, or lap it......


smt

 

[G-ManBart]

I don't think any of these planes are particularly valuable and will cost more in time and replacement parts then they are worth, but IMO it's that time of the century for them to get sorted out so my kids/grandkids/great-grandkids can have some sentimental tools.

You might be surprised what some plane models are going for. Half and quarter-sizes like the 4-1/2 and 5-1/4 always seem to command a premium along with the largest and smallest sizes. My wife has an eBay business (nothing crazy, just 50-100 listings on average). She's sold mostly woodworking, metalworking and vintage fishing stuff. A while back she bought a carpenter's box at auction for something like $40. She brought it home and when I pulled out the planes I nearly fell over....there was a beautiful Stanley No. 2 from the 20s or 30s (definitely pre-WW2) that wound up selling for something like $425 or $450 very quickly.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Almost any quality adjustable throat block plane is going to see more use than most any single plane in your arsenal, unless you are almost completely a benchworker, in which cast the 408 might get a bit more use.

Re: # 408, FWIW, the bedding surface of a frog (for the blade) should not have paint on it.
Beyond that, there can be arguments about how flat to scrape that surface, or file, or lap it......


smt

The face of the frog on this Sargent one was rough cast, which is why I painted it, but it would make sense that it should be flat.

Most of the wood planning I've done up until now has been for resurfacing bench-tops, and for that I've used a 14" Stanley/Bailey that's also cued to be rebuilt and cleaned up. I'll get more pictures up, but other than redundancies in the collection and not including some specialized rabbit and molding planers, I've got the palm plane above, the 9" Sargent, 14" Stanley, and the K.C. Simmons Jointer which I need to measure. I think it's a good enough selection that I shouldn't need to buy anymore.... but you know how these things go. I've always been partial to older Miller Falls tools and their style, function and fit-n-finish.

I don't really have a bench set up for working smaller pieces of wood right now. Short term, I'm thinking about utilizing my scraping station for woodwork as it's meant for similar principles of holding and working flat parts and It has an old craftsman wood vise, but long term I want to build a dedicated wood working bench. I've got one old cast iron pop-up dog that I want to incorporate into the top, as well as finding a couple more like it.

I don't see myself delving too deep into fine cabinetry, but like restoring or building simple "depression era" furniture. On my to-do list is still to reproduce a bed mounted mahogany or birch tool chest for my Hendey lathe like they used to offer, and I expect other tool chest/case projects will come my way too.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Here's the Stanley Bailey I mentioned before, after cleaning it up tonight. No issues with this one other than some rust and dust removal. It's a 14" No. 5 Type 19 from 1948-1961.


While getting these sharp and cleaned up, I'm testing them on machinery crates in the shop and getting some good curly shavings. Last week I picked up some chick's to start out a backyard egg operation, and being the cheap- .....er... thrifty guy I am, I'm looking for all the ways to save money doing it, purely out of spite for my peers telling me chickens are an expensive "hobby". With these planes and an upper body exercise regimen, I should be able to eliminate wood chips from the shopping list.

 

[stephen thomas]

That is a great era Stanley - heavy castings, good hardware, and still rosewood totes.
#5 size bench planes were the most common, though i preferred the larger, heavier #6 for jobsites. Not quite as heavy as a #8, but almost as effective as #7 and a little easier to shoot long parts straight than a #5. In the shop i like #8 for shooting long joints, say for glue up when the app is critical.

purely out of spite for my peers telling me chickens are an expensive "hobby".

Hmmm, not the exact word that immediately springs to my mind.
If they were using the $ symbol, it was probably a different descriptive they were being polite about.
My wife (who grew up in New England 'burbs) mentions the idea of acquiring a flock from time to time.
"They eat ticks all day long, fertilize the ground, and are regular egg factories"
All true, wonderful points.
But people who did not grow up around them don't realize what an incredibly $h..ty environment free range chickens create. I mean absolutely everywhere.

smt

 

[henrya]

M. B., I love the story about your father.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

That is a great era Stanley - heavy castings, good hardware, and still rosewood totes.
#5 size bench planes were the most common, though i preferred the larger, heavier #6 for jobsites. Not quite as heavy as a #8, but almost as effective as #7 and a little easier to shoot long parts straight than a #5. In the shop i like #8 for shooting long joints, say for glue up when the app is critical.



Hmmm, not the exact word that immediately springs to my mind.
If they were using the $ symbol, it was probably a different descriptive they were being polite about.
My wife (who grew up in New England 'burbs) mentions the idea of acquiring a flock from time to time.
"They eat ticks all day long, fertilize the ground, and are regular egg factories"
All true, wonderful points.
But people who did not grow up around them don't realize what an incredibly $h..ty environment free range chickens create. I mean absolutely everywhere.

smt

Most people I've talked to with negative chicken experiences thought they would save a bunch of money not buying eggs, but spent lots more buying everything else. They'd by a $300+ coop, buy all the feed, buy chickens cause they were cute and not because they were good egg layers, everything of that nature, and then realized they were spending more a week then the dozen eggs they got saved them. Chickens have needs, but I see them as an opportunity to DIY every single thing you can and then buy what you need to. That equates to more work but nothing is free. I'm still working on convincing my wife to let me butcher them when they're done laying, but the kids understood at least.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

One new development with the Sargent: It didn't have an original blade, which wasn't a big deal but the blade it had was a Buck Brothers that had a lot of mill scale on it and I figured since I was cleaning it up, might as well try to find a matching blade. Bought one on eBay to find the new blade, stamped as a 408, was 1/4" too narrow. I pulled the frog back off and sure enough, I misread it as it's actually a 409. Totally my mistake and the seller doesn't take returns, so now I have that tough decision If I'm going to sell the new blade to someone else, or piece together a 408 to go with this 409.

I have a bad habit of doing the later in these cases. My first rifle build was an M1 Garand, which started because I happened to have a bayonet for one. Buying the rest of the rifle a piece at a time actually came out to the same money if I had bought one from the CMP, so it's like I bought one on instalments. On the other hand, I used to have some big 1"+ HSS lathe bits that I gave to a friend thinking I'd never own a lathe big enough to use them. Now I have a planer that could have used them, so it pays to be a hoarder!

I've got some other extra blades, chip breakers, and clamps and I'm thinking when I'm done cleaning up the planes I've got, I'll decide if I want to build any planes utilizing what's left and the rest I'll probably put up as a lot on eBay or on here.


It seems that the handles are the big identifier for this planes age, and are as follows:
Rosewood - 1887-1909
East Indian Mahogany - 1910-1924
Mahogany - 1925-1943
Hardwood - 1948-1950 (with 1950 planes also having a Nickle finish. All prior years were raw iron)

From the prior pictures, does anyone have any advise what wood the handles are made from? It seems that the clamp lettering design changed over the years too, but no idea which ones were used when.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

I also got a good start on the Keen Kutter K6 plane. It was pretty rough and has the top of the frog broken off, but I think it's worth saving for more then sentiment as I've learned it's a 'bedrock' design with a better frog support surface. It also has an adjustable mouth like the Stanley/Baily above, and a serrated bottom. The break in the frog doesn't look too old as the iron is still grey, but the loose piece is long gone. otherwise I'd braze it back together.

The handle has a piece broken off the top that is worn like it's been missing for awhile, and it was broken in half but I was able to glue it back together until a better replacement is available. The japanning was pretty rough after the dirt and rust was cleaned off so I repainted it, and I have a new frog assembly coming in the mail. There appeared to be a layer of tar between the frog and the base when I took it apart, as a bedding compound, so I'm thinking I'll do the same when putting it back together. It currently has a Stanley blade which looks to be bent on the top (likely bent when the frog broke). It'll get it going but I'm going to look for a Keen Kutter blade to take it's place. Keen Kutter is another old line that I have a soft spot for.



At 18", this is one of the bigger planes in the collection, so for me it would find use like a jointer, but I think it's proper name would be a forplane. Still trying to determine it's age based on it's features.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

I figured out the issue with the screws. It was mixed with another plane and of course it was the last one I checked. The other one is an old 9" Defiance. Not particularly valuable being from Stanley's economy line, but it's getting cleaned up with the rest of them. It's screw would be the same as Stanley and others, a 9/32-24, but the screw the that was loosely threaded into it was a 17/64-24 and that's what fits the Sargent proper. Just close enough to be confusing. The Sargent screw has a more pronounced dome on top, so that helps keep them separate.


This time I got a before picture of the Defiance. This was one of Dad's working planes. Not sure where he picked it up. He frequented swap meets in Socal and bought stuff from associates, but could have bought it new. You can see where it had been rattle can marked with some bright green, which he did to a bunch of his tools to keep tabs on them on the job site, but he also started bead blasting it as an assembly, which I'm pretty sure was when his age/illness had advanced. He understandibly couldn't stand not to be working and started a lot of little projects like this that haulted when pieces were misplaced or he wasn't able to continue them. Taking it apart to clean up and paint proper will be a quick task, and it closes the door on one more reminder of the condition he was in, then it goes back in his tool chest.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Obviously I stretched out my Sargent issue to a couple other planes here, but this project has reached a stopping point.


The replacement frog assembly came in for the Keen Kutter. After thinking about it I didn't add the tar bedding compound under it as that would make it a challenge to adjust. I'm thinking someone added it in the past to glue it in place.

I cleaned the paint off of the Sargent's frog and stoned some of the roughness down and it's flat where it matters now. The rough-cast surface was mainly on the top but the bottom where the blade clamps is good and smooth.

So now we're on to the next phases. I have replacement matching blades coming in for the Sargent and the Keen Kutter respectively that will finish those projects. The Defiance and another plastic handled Stanley I have are missing the blades, but I'm pretty sure they're sitting somewhere. If not I'm sure eBay will come through for me. The other blades pictured above are orphaned at the moment, but I already started buying parts to put together a Sargent 408, and for the Stanley 2 3/8" blade that was on the Keen Kutter I'm looking for a Stanley Bedrock that's a size larger (22"?) than the K6 I have, which should use the same 2 3/8" blade. The rest will likely end up in an eBay lot unless someone on here sees something they can use.

These are the "most interesting" basic iron planes in the collection. There's a couple plastic handled planes too and some spoke shaves and iron molding planes that I might post in another thread. I have part of a Stanley #45 combination molding plane that I'm working on completing, for example. Most of the other's are all old wooden Jack and molding planes. I'll start another thread for those when I get into them. I've been watching Youtubes about cleaning them up with alcohol and murphy's oil, gluing cracks, truing up the bottoms, stuff like that. The fun one is one of the jack planes looks like it was found out on the prairie with lots of dry cracks, missing handle and wedge, etc. It's a curio-cabinet piece with no makers marks, but given it's lack of rarity/value I'm thinking about resurrecting's it with some epoxy. I'm planning on making all the missing pieces for these wooden planes including the irons, so might have some questions when that time comes.