Oliver 25B Lathe - Motor Not Coming On.

[Valvguy1]

I bought this lathe on an online auction. So far nobody can tell me the Motor Specs. I do know - it was "Born On" March 16th, 1944 and shipped to the McDonald Douglass Corp in Los Angeles. Between then and now it spent some amount of time in the Medford School District in Oregon. How it ended up here in Louisiana - I have no idea.

The Motor is a 4 speed 450, 900, 1200, 1800. Like all Oliver 25 Models -It is a Direct Motor Drive Unit. I suspect that it is 220 3 phase - but I can't confirm that yet. When I apply 220 VAC 3 Phase I hear a hum when I het the start button and nothing else. No Contactors move, etc. I'm pretty sure it is a 2HP since it has the 450 speed.


When I apply 220 VAC 3 Phase I hear a hum when I hit the start button - and nothing else. No Contactors move, etc. The amp draw is less than an amp on 2 legs and Zero on a third leg when the Start Button is depressed. I did manage to get the small contactor to close using a stream of compressed air. Still nothing. It did hum quite loudly and maintained contact. I haven't forced the larger contactor which is marked L1, L2, L3 and S closed when power is applied. On the large contactor I do have continuity on L1, L2 and L3 white wires when measured against wires with the same markings on the 3 220 legs heading into the machine. I do have 220 volt/Continuity across the Start Switch (NO?) when it is depressed. I have continuity across the Stop Switch at all times unless the Switch is depressed (NC?) I also see several components marked 440V 600V Maybe it is a 440 Machine.

Also, like all of these machines it has a mechanical interlock device so such that it can only be started on low speed. I have bypassed that and tried to start on all speeds. The Speed controller is Pull to Break Contact and Turn to change speed. Continuity works as expected

Attaching a few pics.

I'm hoping somebody can help. I did read somewhere that a VFD isn't going to make these contactors work. Maybe that is the issue?

 

[johnoder]

Here is what my catalog page says - like it was important

"The design of this lathe embodies an entirely new principle of control. The stationary plate carries permanent contact points connected to all motor wires. The sliding plate carries spring-loaded contact points connected to control switch and power lines"

Maybe I'll try scanning this bit

 

[Valvguy1]

Here is what my catalog page says - like it was important

"The design of this lathe embodies an entirely new principle of control. The stationary plate carries permanent contact points connected to all motor wires. The sliding plate carries spring-loaded contact points connected to control switch and power lines"

Maybe I'll try scanning this bit

 

[Valvguy1]

Very interesting. The Sliding Plate is connected to the Speed Selector. When it moves is does cover and uncover contact points behind it which I now know to be the motor windings. I think with this knowledge I can check the windings for continuity and to make sure they aren't grounded to the chassis somehow. I'm more and more sure that these two contactors are the key to get the Incoming Voltage to the Windings. I think the coil on the big contactor is supposed to energize and complete the circuit from Line in to Windings. I'm just reluctant to stick a screwdriver in there and make that happen.

 

[Valvguy1]

Thanks John Oder. Between your post and my son having the intestinal fortitude to use plastic pipe to encourage the contactors to "make" we were able to get it to spin. I'm thinking more and more that this is a 440 machine. It didn't like start at the 450 which is it's highest AMP draw. We got it to start a number of times at 1800 and 1200. I guess now the problem is getting 440. I guess I'll have to tell my wife - we're gunna have to move to the Warehouse District.

 

[johnoder]

Thanks John Oder. Between your post and my son having the intestinal fortitude to use plastic pipe to encourage the contactors to "make" we were able to get it to spin. I'm thinking more and more that this is a 440 machine. It didn't like start at the 450 which is it's highest AMP draw. We got it to start a number of times at 1800 and 1200. I guess now the problem is getting 440. I guess I'll have to tell my wife - we're gunna have to move to the Warehouse District.

480 out / 240 in Transformer with enough 3 phase poop to run 3 HP 3 phase off 240 will make all the difference in the world

 

[Bill D]

I would think the lower rpm would be less amps? Your results seem opposite of that.
Bill D

 

[Valvguy1]

I know. Strange.

 

[stephen thomas]

you should be able to determine the motor voltage by how the internal windings are connected.

Maybe there is something here that would be useful

3 phase motor connection - Google Search

Or take it to a motor shop and ask.

smt

 

[Cory]

I just rebuilt a Oliver 25C that was 550 volt and had it rewound to 230 volt 3 phase. My plan was to put a vfd to give me more speed ranges but have not figured out how to do that yet.
Did you try calling Straitoplane and give them your serial number and maybe they can give you motor specs.
The speeds on my machine are 600 1200 1800 and 3600. The 600 rpm draws the most amps.
The front plate tells you to start the machine in the slowest speed and move up after it is spinning.

I did use all my old switch gear and found NOS lower voltage contactors after the motor was rewound. The lathe spins great with no problems.

 

[Cory]

Here are some pictures of the sliding contact plates. The contacts get dirty and burned. You might have to clean them up. If your voltage is wrong then it’s not going to work well.

 

[Cory]

This is the old motor plate and a new one. I had Von Industrial make up the new plates. The original started at 550 volts. I had to get a transformer to step up from 480 to 550 to make sure the machine ran before I had it rewound.

 

[Valvguy1]

you should be able to determine the motor voltage by how the internal windings are connected.

Maybe there is something here that would be useful

3 phase motor connection - Google Search

Or take it to a motor shop and ask.

smt

I might have to do that. It weight 550# though.

 

[Valvguy1]

This is the old motor plate and a new one. I had Von Industrial make up the new plates. The original started at 550 volts. I had to get a transformer to step up from 480 to 550 to make sure the machine ran before I had it rewound.

All of this is very helpful. From what I can tell - with 450 RPM listed on the faceplate - it has to be the 2HP motor. I've been working with Straitoplane. They gave me the Born On Date and the End User. Nothing else so far. Well - one interesting thing.... They told me te box that I thought had the Carriage turned out to have a complete ITCH Grinder in it - no Carriage. There was a 299D Planer at the same auction.

Cory, can I ask you how much it was to get the machine rewound to 240 3 phase? That would probably be my first choice.

 

[richard newman]

I have a 25C also, with a 220v motor, speed range 450 - 1800 rpm. It's been over 30 years, but I remember dressing the faces of the silver contacts, and maybe replacing a few. Can't remember why tho...

A thought about the voltage of your machine - a 440v motor should draw half the amperage of a 220v motor, and maybe use lighter gauge wire. Cory, did you notice any difference in your before and after motor?

 

[Cory]

Richard,
I only ran the original motor on the 550 volt for a little while. I did not turn a project on it. The only difference I noticed is when I put new bearings it sounded quieter than the ones that came in it. The guy I got the Lathe from said the bearing were replaced by the guy he got it from. I didn't want to take a chance after that much work. I found NOS bearings on eBay and called Timken to get the right grease and put them it. Preloading the Timken tapered roller bearings were tricky and I think I need to adjust them one more time, but they are running smooth.

I did notice that some of the break parts were a different color so they must have been replaced sometime in its life.

When I first turned my machine on at 550 volts not all the speeds were working, and I was worried that I had a bad winding. But after taking the sliding plates apart I noticed that some of the contacts were burnt on the ends. I cleaned them up and it turned right on the speed that was misbehaving. My machine will not start if I am not in the slowest speed 600rpm for me.

Also, the rotor has to come off the shaft to get to the back bearing on the outboard side. You do not take the outside faceplate off the machine. It does not come off.

Richard where did you get the silver contacts, or did you make them?

 

[Valvguy1]

I have a 25C also, with a 220v motor, speed range 450 - 1800 rpm. It's been over 30 years, but I remember dressing the faces of the silver contacts, and maybe replacing a few. Can't remember why tho...

A thought about the voltage of your machine - a 440v motor should draw half the amperage of a 220v motor, and maybe use lighter gauge wire. Cory, did you notice any difference in your before and after motor?

Hmmm You are the first one I've heard say they have the same motor speeds. Do you remember if any of the contacts were marked 440?

 

[richard newman]

Cory - I can't remember where I got the silver contacts, but it might have been Oliver, they were very much in business back then and very friendly.
When I asked if you saw a difference 220 vs 550, I meant in wire gauge.

Valvguy - Can't remember noticing anything about voltage, but it wasn't a concern. I'm wondering if the magnetic switch coil being marked 440v indicates motor voltage or is just one size fits all? Might want to post here, where the electrical wizards hang out. https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/categories/transformers-phase-converters-and-vfd.11/

Also might get some help from OWWM.org, lots of experience there.

 

[Valvguy1]

I bought this lathe on an online auction. So far nobody can tell me the Motor Specs. I do know - it was "Born On" March 16th, 1944 and shipped to the McDonald Douglass Corp in Los Angeles. Between then and now it spent some amount of time in the Medford School District in Oregon. How it ended up here in Louisiana - I have no idea.

The Motor is a 4 speed 450, 900, 1200, 1800. Like all Oliver 25 Models -It is a Direct Motor Drive Unit. I suspect that it is 220 3 phase - but I can't confirm that yet. When I apply 220 VAC 3 Phase I hear a hum when I het the start button and nothing else. No Contactors move, etc. I'm pretty sure it is a 2HP since it has the 450 speed.


When I apply 220 VAC 3 Phase I hear a hum when I hit the start button - and nothing else. No Contactors move, etc. The amp draw is less than an amp on 2 legs and Zero on a third leg when the Start Button is depressed. I did manage to get the small contactor to close using a stream of compressed air. Still nothing. It did hum quite loudly and maintained contact. I haven't forced the larger contactor which is marked L1, L2, L3 and S closed when power is applied. On the large contactor I do have continuity on L1, L2 and L3 white wires when measured against wires with the same markings on the 3 220 legs heading into the machine. I do have 220 volt/Continuity across the Start Switch (NO?) when it is depressed. I have continuity across the Stop Switch at all times unless the Switch is depressed (NC?) I also see several components marked 440V 600V Maybe it is a 440 Machine.

Also, like all of these machines it has a mechanical interlock device so such that it can only be started on low speed. I have bypassed that and tried to start on all speeds. The Speed controller is Pull to Break Contact and Turn to change speed. Continuity works as expected

Attaching a few pics.

I'm hoping somebody can help. I did read somewhere that a VFD isn't going to make these contactors work. Maybe that is the issue?

I feel like a real idiot asking this, but, I did get kicked out of BE&E in the Navy, lol. So the 2 Contactors and I might be using the wrong terminology - Can someone tell me what they are called. The Larger one (Cutler Hammer) seems to be what allows the main power to the windings. The Smaller one? I don't know. Is there some sort of "starting" circuit perhaps?

Of note: The machine is supposed to only start in 450 speed (highest amp draw). My 3200Watt VFD will start it sometimes. I have been able to start it in the other speeds successfully. From what I can tell the "interlock" that only allows starting in 450 is really nothing more than an arm attached to the brake lever that keeps the "Stop" switch depressed initially.

Here is the sequence that we used to get the motor spinning at 220 - Press Run on VFD to 60Hz When 60Hz is attained I would push the Start button as my son used an insulated device to engage the small contactor which would hum and maintain contact thereafter. Then he would use the same device to engage the lager Cutler Hammer Contactor. At that point the motor would begin to spin.

I bought this lathe on an online auction. So far nobody can tell me the Motor Specs. I do know - it was "Born On" March 16th, 1944 and shipped to the McDonald Douglass Corp in Los Angeles. Between then and now it spent some amount of time in the Medford School District in Oregon. How it ended up here in Louisiana - I have no idea.

The Motor is a 4 speed 450, 900, 1200, 1800. Like all Oliver 25 Models -It is a Direct Motor Drive Unit. I suspect that it is 220 3 phase - but I can't confirm that yet. When I apply 220 VAC 3 Phase I hear a hum when I het the start button and nothing else. No Contactors move, etc. I'm pretty sure it is a 2HP since it has the 450 speed.


When I apply 220 VAC 3 Phase I hear a hum when I hit the start button - and nothing else. No Contactors move, etc. The amp draw is less than an amp on 2 legs and Zero on a third leg when the Start Button is depressed. I did manage to get the small contactor to close using a stream of compressed air. Still nothing. It did hum quite loudly and maintained contact. I haven't forced the larger contactor which is marked L1, L2, L3 and S closed when power is applied. On the large contactor I do have continuity on L1, L2 and L3 white wires when measured against wires with the same markings on the 3 220 legs heading into the machine. I do have 220 volt/Continuity across the Start Switch (NO?) when it is depressed. I have continuity across the Stop Switch at all times unless the Switch is depressed (NC?) I also see several components marked 440V 600V Maybe it is a 440 Machine.

Also, like all of these machines it has a mechanical interlock device so such that it can only be started on low speed. I have bypassed that and tried to start on all speeds. The Speed controller is Pull to Break Contact and Turn to change speed. Continuity works as expected

Attaching a few pics.

I'm hoping somebody can help. I did read somewhere that a VFD isn't going to make these contactors work. Maybe that is the issue?

I need someone to help me with my terminology. The Two ElectroMagnets - 1 Large and 1 small in the pictures - Can someone help me with what those are called? The small has to be engaged and then the large one - that can be accomplished with or without hitting the start button. We were able to run the Lathe tonight for about an hour by making sure the electromagnets "made" and stayed together. With that we could start at any speed. The Lathe is very sensitive to Hz. It likes 55 - 60 to start. It cuts out at 65 and we ran it as low as 40Hz. I'm not sure if the Electromagnets -are weak or maybe they need 440 to work properly, but they are Key to making this thing operate properly.

 

[richard newman]

I'm no expert, but from my understanding of vfds you're doing this incorrectly. First, there's not supposed to be any switches between the vfd and the motor. Switches on the machine can be used to control the vfd, or the vfd can be used to start and stop. Second, the vfd is supposed to have it's parameters set to a specific motor, they can't be used for multi-speed motors. I don't if you are causing any damage with what you're doing, someone more knowledgeable could give you better and more specific advice. I'd advise you to reach out in an appropriate forum, it sounds like you're over your head here.