OT Ford Industrial Motor Help Needed

[adh2000]

Help please. I have a Wiggins forklift with a Ford 172 4 cylinder industrial motor. The intake valves stuck due to bad gas. Push rods bent. Had a valve job done, bought new pushrods, and got things back together. Cranking it over with the starter I notice one of the pushrods is not moving. I could see the top of the lifter so I thought maybe the lifter was stuck in the up position. Gave it a tap and it dropped about half an inch. Still doesn’t seem to go up and down as the motor turns. So, any ideas? The lobe stripped off the camshaft? The lifter cracked in half and the bottom part is in the oil pan? Anyone have something like this happen? What can I look at?

 

[GregSY]

The beauty of engines is they don't have any secrets....

It sounds like there is no cam lobe, at least based on your comments. But without using my own eyes, it's not definite. I can promise you the lifter didn't crack in half....that's never happened in all of history.

Did the lifter in question also have a bent pushrod? I'm guessing no.

I also question the valves sticking due to bad gas, but you didn't ask about that.

 

[technocrat]

if they are hydraulic lifters, they will need oil to pump up. Did you get oil pressure on the cranking?

 

[john.k]

If there have been seized valves and bent pushrods ,then yes,the cam may well be cactus.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

I also question the valves sticking due to bad gas, but you didn't ask about that.

I've seen it happen on several occasions, old gas will build up a layer of varnish on the valve stems, then they stick. Penetrant and a soft face hammer will free them up. Then I drain old gas, add fresh gas + some atf.

 

[john.k]

For sure ...liquid gas leaves a sticky ,stinky residue throughout the system ...........and it has no additives to remove residue from engine innards........commercial gasoline does have additives that remove varnish ,bitumen and carbon so engines run clean ,and stay clean .............Some of the old timers here may recall when your car had to be "decoked" every 10,000 miles ,or it would literally stall on hills ,and then run on for like 10 minutes when you shut off the ignition.

 

[the wrench]

After the lifter came up again did you tap it back down? Could just be sticking in the bore.

 

[Hobby Shop]

That 1960’s Ford 4000 tractor engine would’ve liked some lead additive once in a while. Parts are all over and cheap for that engine.

 

[Superbowl]

Sounds like the cam lobe is worn off. Unfortunately that means metal shavings through the engine. Time for a total rebuild.

 

[Bill D]

I know nothing about that engine. How old is it? Would it make sense to replace it with something newer with fuel injection and electronic ignition. Is there. a modern drop in replacement.
Bill D

 

[Garwood]

Sounds like the cam lobe is worn off. Unfortunately that means metal shavings through the engine. Time for a total rebuild.

Remember that thingy called the oil filter?

 

[john.k]

An IH 345 petrol V8 in a fire truck was blown up ,and some of the lifters were broken into three pieces ,the cam was broken at the third bank of cylinders ..........the broken lifters were like rings on pushrods .......Dont know what exactly happened ,but used to get plenty of firetrucks with blown motors for $500.........One time got a lovely little Dodge dualwheel 3 tonner ,just like new with one slightly burnt tire for $200.

 

[adh2000]

I think I already explained but I tapped the lifter down. The valve clearance is something like 1/2”. The lifter does not move up when the camshaft turns. So I guess it has to be no lobe on the camshaft and a broken lifter. What else could it be? The motor and forklift are 1973. I’m trying to get psychologically prepared to pull the camshaft.

 

[hvnlymachining]

First thing to note, is there lifters before or after moving? Of so, is the lifter in question fully seated on the cam? A cam almost never goes completely flat. The lifter should at least move a little. If it's last inline and no movement at all suspect a broken camshaft.

OP just added "The valve clearance is something like 1/2”.

1/2" valve clearance?????

Something is missing here. A camshaft won't wear down beyond the point of pressure from the lifter/valve spring.

( Although I once witnessed a lifter that had been eaten into by the cam, but that's extremely rare) Broken off lifter isn't likely. ( But not necessarily impossible)

One question seems to crop up.
How long was this machine ran with stuck valves?? ( One possible explanation for pressure beyond typical limits in my mind)

I'm afraid a tear down is likely in your future.

Also, E-85 fuel dissolves varnish very well, never add it to a vehicle that has been parked for very long, but it works well for flushing out fuel systems that have varnished. If any varnish remains it'll stick up engine parts again and again for months. So be sure your system is CLEAN before attempting to run it.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

I'm not familiar with the 172, but I think Ford used that engine in some of their tractors as well, and if it's like other flat-head 4 cylinders Ford made I'd look on some old tractor sites as those guys are pretty knowledgeable keeping them running and those engines are typically not very picky. If it was me, I'd take it back apart and just confirm the state of the parts and see that the valve and push-rod are not binding on their own. Short of cracking the block, everything on those old engines can be fixed with a wear kit and replacement parts. Not a lot of precision gauging and fitting going on. I doubt it has hydraulic lifters and IF it does have an oil-filter, there's a good chance it's not full pressure lubrication which means lots of stuff can get by it, but on the bright side it's all stuff you can fix in the middle of a dusty barn.

 

[alphonso]

I also question the valves sticking due to bad gas, but you didn't ask about that.

Every V-4 Wisconsin engine I know of will stick a valve now and then.. Always varnish from gas.

 

[adh2000]

First thing to note, is there lifters before or after moving? Of so, is the lifter in question fully seated on the cam? A cam almost never goes completely flat. The lifter should at least move a little. If it's last inline and no movement at all suspect a broken camshaft.

The lifter in question is #3. 1-2, and 4-8 work fine so not a broken cam shaft.

OP just added "The valve clearance is something like 1/2”.

1/2" valve clearance?????

Exactly. It couldn’t possibly have worn 1/2” into the camshaft so I assume must be a broken lifter. I’m going to remove the pushrod and see if a magnet can pull the lifter up and out.

Something is missing here. A camshaft won't wear down beyond the point of pressure from the lifter/valve spring.

( Although I once witnessed a lifter that had been eaten into by the cam, but that's extremely rare) Broken off lifter isn't likely. ( But not necessarily impossible)

One question seems to crop up.
How long was this machine ran with stuck valves?? ( One possible explanation for pressure beyond typical limits in my mind)

Well, the machine was running fine. I was using to move some things around the yard. Then suddenly it stopped and here we are. Everything was nice and oily under the valve cover there does not appear to be a lubrication problem.

I'm afraid a tear down is likely in your future.

Also, E-85 fuel dissolves varnish very well, never add it to a vehicle that has been parked for very long, but it works well for flushing out fuel systems that have varnished. If any varnish remains it'll stick up engine parts again and again for months. So be sure your system is CLEAN before attempting to run it.

 

[adh2000]

I'm not familiar with the 172, but I think Ford used that engine in some of their tractors as well, and if it's like other flat-head 4 cylinders Ford made I'd look on some old tractor sites as those guys are pretty knowledgeable keeping them running and those engines are typically not very picky. If it was me, I'd take it back apart and just confirm the state of the parts and see that the valve and push-rod are not binding on their own. Short of cracking the block, everything on those old engines can be fixed with a wear kit and replacement parts. Not a lot of precision gauging and fitting going on. I doubt it has hydraulic lifters and IF it does have an oil-filter, there's a good chance it's not full pressure lubrication which means lots of stuff can get by it, but on the bright side it's all stuff you can fix in the middle of a dusty barn.

It’s not a flathead it’s a pushrod motor but yeah I get what you mean. They used this motor in a number of tractors, parts are cheap and easy from ag sources but need to be mail ordered. The motor is generally bulletproof except for right now.

 

[Superbowl]

Remember that thingy called the oil filter?

I guess you have not done much inside engine work. Oil filters are good but a lot of shavings can do damage in the crankcase to cam bearings, cylinder walls etc. before the oil carries them to the filter. The filter stops large particles but real small stuff passes right through.

 

[Garwood]

I guess you have not done much inside engine work. Oil filters are good but a lot of shavings can do damage in the crankcase to cam bearings, cylinder walls etc. before the oil carries them to the filter. The filter stops large particles but real small stuff passes right through.

Besides a lifetime of being a gearhead, rebuilding thousands of transmissions, hundreds of engines, owning a waterbrake engine dyno for testing and manufacturing valvetrain components for pushrod engines- No experience at all.

The problem the parts I invented and manufacture fix, is related to cam lobes disappearing so, as guys who might know a couple things about an issue like this go, I might be one of them.

Sure, the oil pump eats some shit, but I've never actually seen any bearing or cylinder wall damage related to cam damage. The oil filter usually does it's job.