Purchasing a new CMM and software decisions...

[CTB912]

Hello all,

I've been reading through several threads and most seem to be at least a year or more old, I was hoping to get some more current feedback from some of you experts with up to date experiences and insight.

The company I work for is currently in the process of buying a new CMM.

We are in the aerospace industry, with our largest customer being a high end business jet manufacturer in SE Georgia. The largest parts we currently manufacture are roughly the size of a bulkhead in a business jet with +/- .030" profile tolerances, .010 positional tolerances and .002" diameter tolerances but the vast majority of parts we do are smaller machined parts that carry anywhere from +/- .0002" to .010" tolerances with GD&T requirements as well. We are in a position to expand into larger more structural parts that will undoubtedly have inspection requirements that will exceed the parts we currently do.

We currently have a Faro Arm and use Verisurf 2024 software.

The CMM's we currently are discussing are:

Hexagon Global S 15.30.10 A+/T+ running PC-DMIS CAD++ (I have read that many people do not like PC-DMIS due to bugs, crashes, UI and overall difficulty learning to program the software and that certainly worries me.)

Mitutoyo CRYSTA-APEX V7106 running MCOSMOS-3 CNC CMM+ MiCAT Planner on-line

Zeiss (still waiting on quotes/model numbers) running Calypso (I assume)

If anybody can shed some light on the pros and cons of any combination of machine and software it would be greatly appreciated.

TIA,

CB

 

[John Garner]

Not recent experience, but thirty-some years ago, my employer wanted a CMM with a working volume approaching that of a two-car garage. The parts to be inspected, carbon-fiber reflectors for spacecraft antennas, were light enough for one person to handle easily, but filled a 10 x 12 x 3 foot box.

The price if a big-enough CMM was to rich for corporate management to stomach, and told local management that they would go for half the price, but no more,

On being told that news, the Zeiss salesman said that there was no way he could meet the price cap. He then asked for time to think the situation over.

About a week later, he proposed a single-garage-size Zeiss-Stiffelmayer (not sure about the spelling) with a AA Gauge Ultradex table centered just a few inches from the CMM's workspace envelope.

The Ultradex allowed the workpiece yo be measured in quadrants that could easily be "stitched together" simply and with negligible loss of accuracy and precision.

If I recall correctly, the Ultradex center-location non-repeatability cap was 0.0001 inch, and the rotational orientation error was +/- 1 arcsecond.

That combination worked well for a decade before being replaced with V-Stars industrial photogrammetry system that could provide swoopy graphics to show the customers.

A similar approach may meet you needd.

Incidentally, I suggest that doing small jobs on a big machine might turn out to be a bad choice once your wotkloads increase.

 

[MateuszMetrology]

Check these threads:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/cmm-purchase.417202/
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...orth-switching-from-mcosmos-to-pcdmis.350282/
Seems nobody likes Hexagon & PcDmis combo! After our "great" experience with Hexagon we don't either. Software is buggy, ripoff pricing vs. Wenzel, LK & Mitutoyo & customer support is not so great these days.
Big mistake selling out Brown & Sharpe. Back when they were independent they were top notch. We have a 20 year old B&S machine that was bought just after this disastrous buyout & it works like it was bought yesterday. Our nearly new Global S Chrome with PcDmis CAD++ is junk largely because of software issues. Moreover Hexagon ended Brown & Sharpe's Datapage support which is annoying because it was great simple no-frills data collection software that worked well with PcDmis. Additional problem is Hexagon won't give you support if you don't renew PcDmis licence at least once a year. I can't recall exact pricing for renewing but it's crappy expensive. Worse if you don't renew for a few years you pay extra for the newest licence. It's nuts. Hardware is still all right though.
Zeiss is a ripoff too but the software is stable & customer support is getting better & better. Scanning is awesome. Calypso is completely different play vs. anything in the industry though.
Mitutoyo is the best of both worlds. Accurate enough & not a pricing disaster. But MiCat planner I'm not so sure about. PcDmis does have something like this but I never use it. I prefer doing things on my own than relying on software. Just make sure you get MeasurLink for data collection & machine large enough to allow room for probe rotation around the workpiece. Don't go with minimum because that's the biggest headache with bridge type machine. Not enough room.

 

[Hebrewhammer8]

I wouldn't touch anything hexagon even if you paid me to. Bad quality plus PCDMIS is just straight up SHIT!

I have a 2018 Wenzle LH65 with a REVO2 5ax Head on it. I drive it with Verisurf and couldn't be happier. Super accurate and easy to use machine/system.
The REVO 5 axis head saves so much time compared to a standard 5axis touch trigger head. I would look into this technology as this could save you anywhere from a few hours to days on your CMM process.

Whatever you get you should be able to get it with a REVO head on it these days. I see Mitutoyo finally supports the REVO system in their software now too.

 

[SteveEx30]

Ran a Brown and Sharpe for long time basically trouble free. Didn't mind the PcDmis although it was unstable.

 

[CharlyD]

We have a Hexagon and a Mitutoyo CMM at my work and we run Verisurf on both which has been great. I believe Verisurf can also run Ziess. Stick to Verisurf no matter what would be my suggestion.

 

[BOB-OO]

We have a month old Crysta Apex V 7106 and its working very well for us. Mitutoyo apps engineers are awesome, they are extremely knowledgeable about metrology and their product- super supportive and they give u their direct contact info. Calling the 800 support is hit or miss.
We spent some extra to have on-site training. It was very worthwhile, we learned Mcosmos 5 on our parts and they even helped with organizational ideas, fixturing, etc.
The only issue with it was (windows)when connected to internet to download some software - windows was a pain w updates causing 2 shutdowns during a program. Its disconnected on a protected network now. One month after training 2 of us(no CMM experience) can easily setup parts, make programs and reports and get whatever data we need.
Mitutoyo - no support charges! 3 levels of software, Std, then u can add complex scanning(Scanpak), also can add a more CAD curve and surface comparator - CAT1000. Once you buy them no more costs.

I hate software as a service companies - you couldn't give me a Hexagon anything-f them, Zeiss was significantly more costly over time bc of software & software extras included w Mit.

 

[triumph406]

use Verisurf 2024 software.

PC-DMIS CAD++

Most everywhere I've worked in the aerospace world has been using Verisurf and PCDMIS.

Seemed to work for them OK

 

[triumph406]

texted a friend who uses PCDMIS

"It is good. Hard to use. Really Bad tech support"
"anybody who needs tech support is shit out of luck if they can't figure things out for themselves"

 

[CarbideBob]

The largest parts we currently manufacture are roughly the size of a bulkhead in a business jet with +/- .030" profile tolerances, .010 positional tolerances and .002" diameter tolerances but the vast majority of parts we do are smaller machined parts that carry anywhere from +/- .0002"

Big parts and open tolerance and small parts small tolerances.
This is big ask. Have you consider two CMMS more in tune with the checks? It might be cheaper.

 

[pb1]

texted a friend who uses PCDMIS

"It is good. Hard to use. Really Bad tech support"
"anybody who needs tech support is shit out of luck if they can't figure things out for themselves"

I've had the opposite experience. Their tech support is ok, but might take some time getting back to you. Any time I've ever asked "how would you approach this problem?" they have given me what I need.

 

[triumph406]

this is an opinion of a person I ask

I don't think I am aware of any software written in Canada that is even comparable to the train-wreck commonly known as PC-DMIS. That software really set the bar low for commercial quality.

Maybe, but it's been industry standard at every aerospace company I've worked at.

 

[BOB-OO]

+1 Mcosmos - I actually like it now, not difficult to learn for anyone familiar with CNC CAM. You should really run the software yourself on one or 2 of your parts. Every CMM company either directly or through their distributors were open to letting us spend most of a day on their machines.

 

[MateuszMetrology]

I went to Calypso Level 1 class few years ago. Plenty, if not 1/4th of the class, were former PC DMIS guys. Just because Hexagon via B&S & DEA has got the biggest share now means little because they are losing that share. Zeiss & Mitutoyo have upped their game (especially Mitu) in the last few years & it shows. Zeiss market share gains enabled it to out profit Hexagon & Mitu has cornered the shop floor market via Mistar 555. Also Renishaw probe heads the Revo & PH20 are leagues ahead of anything Hexagon can offer. To illustrate the point Hexagon is shrinking selling its Tesa sub brand to some Chinese company & apparently closing Hexagon Deutschland & consolidating everything around the former DEA in Italy. GM experience shows if you don't have a sound plan in managing separate venerable brands then don't buy them. And Hexagon software support ends the moment licence expires unless you keep spending several thousands $$$ per year.

 

[MateuszMetrology]

+1 Mcosmos - I actually like it now, not difficult to learn for anyone familiar with CNC CAM. You should really run the software yourself on one or 2 of your parts. Every CMM company either directly or through their distributors were open to letting us spend most of a day on their machines.

We're planning to purchase multisensor CMM. Mitu along with OGP is on top of the list. Mitu has the advantage of one company offering both vision & standard CMMs (Quick Vision, Mistar 555, Crysta Apex) and the same software across the range. We were interested in B&S Classic benchtop but Hexagon for whatever reason dropped it from its lineup before the big shots made the decision leaving the ungainly Optiv as the only option.

 

[gregormarwick]

I use PowerInspect and like it. It is fully visual/feature based programming - no DMIS at any level, although it can import DMIS code and run it. It has a nice range of functionality, multimachine and multisensor but also strong with OMV, so one software piece to do CMM and OMV.

Downsides are Autodesk and small market share, at least specific to CMM inspection, it's more commonly used in OMV.

 

[BOB-OO]

We're planning to purchase multisensor CMM. Mitu along with OGP is on top of the list. Mitu has the advantage of one company offering both vision & standard CMMs (Quick Vision, Mistar 555, Crysta Apex) and the same software across the range. We were interested in B&S Classic benchtop but Hexagon for whatever reason dropped it from its lineup before the big shots made the decision leaving the ungainly Optiv as the only option.

We almost went for the OGP machine. Also considered the vision addon to the Mitsu CMM but it is not cheap- 40k. That's 1/2 the price of most new vision machines so maybe not a good bang for the buck. We were also concerned about OGP & Mitsu adding the weight of the vision to the PH10. We thought 2 separate machines would be better.
CMM only - the Apex V was more repeatable then OGP. I believe 1.7 vs 2.1 microns @ Temp1.

 

[pb1]

We almost went for the OGP machine. Also considered the vision addon to the Mitsu CMM but it is not cheap- 40k. That's 1/2 the price of most new vision machines so maybe not a good bang for the buck. We were also concerned about OGP & Mitsu adding the weight of the vision to the PH10. We thought 2 separate machines would be better.
CMM only - the Apex V was more repeatable then OGP. I believe 1.7 vs 2.1 microns @ Temp1.

I can say that the service I received from OGP was not up to par with what I've experienced from any other CMM company.

 

[BOB-OO]

I can say that the service I received from OGP was not up to par with what I've experienced from any other CMM company.

That maybe the new state of affairs now, very happy to say we have not needed service but I've heard "everyone is very backed up" i.e. short of competent techs. We're running our machine everyday now, I can't imagine not having it.

 

[MateuszMetrology]

We almost went for the OGP machine. Also considered the vision addon to the Mitsu CMM but it is not cheap- 40k. That's 1/2 the price of most new vision machines so maybe not a good bang for the buck. We were also concerned about OGP & Mitsu adding the weight of the vision to the PH10. We thought 2 separate machines would be better.
CMM only - the Apex V was more repeatable then OGP. I believe 1.7 vs 2.1 microns @ Temp1.

The big shots wanted to add multisensor capability to our Hexagon Global S but it was pricey too and the added complexity in the already buggy system didn't help. Better to have 2 separate machines. Mitu (MCosmos) & OGP (Zone3/MeasureMind3D) are our top choices but there is also Nikon with CMM Manager out there we might take a look at.