to scrap everything and start over or keep slogging along?

[Rob L]

It just feels like everyone has no trust in any machine since a hire from a now bankrupt shop with the best of the best new machines showed up. all the machines hold tolerance and do the job asked of them albeit a bit slow or I would have sent them on their way .

That sounds like it was all going fine until one guy came along and started on a whole "back in the shop I used to work at we had this and it did that and it was so much faster and it was shiny", I've seen similar things before although not in a machine shop, some people really can't stand a downgrade and they like to make it known. Thing is, in my case those people came from businesses that ran out of money and the same thing in your case, so that equipment alone didn't save them and they can't imagine a world where people turn a profit with older or cheaper equipment.

I'd also like to know how old the machines are, even CNC machines have a pretty long lifespan as long as they remain supported, my oldest CNC lathe has iron going back around 40 - 45 years and was retrofitted 25 years ago, it has quirks but it makes parts and it does them well, but I could certainly imagine if someone from a shop running a 5 year old Okuma came to run it they'd be annoyed constantly.

Without knowing much I think the above posts about single out the worst machine and replace that first are pretty fair, if you have a 30 year old CNC lathe that's tempermental but does make parts look at replacing it with something that is 15 years old and has known support, buying new isn't the be all and end all and clearly buying used doesn't put you off.

 

[ttrager]

I'm not qualified to talk too much about this in this thread, except for maybe one piece of advice learned from the shop I'm in. Many of the replies in this thread give good advice I think, out of experience, for things to look at and consider (e.g. evaluate costs, tackle your worst offender first, take it step at a time, etc.).

If you buy NEW equipment make sure you personally have some means of testing the machines capabilities ready. Do not trust the installation techs, do not trust the marketing and spec literature. You have to do it, either with the installation tech there watching once they are done, or the first thing run through the machine when they leave.

On the one hand I'm stating the obvious, right? My guess is not a person in this forum needs unqualified me telling them "make sure it runs right when you buy something."

Here's why I bothered: Our shop has made significant machine purchases and replacements in the past four years. NEW machines from well known brands (Okuma, Haas, Mitsubishi EDM's, Roders). Not all, but most of those required significant service calling in the first one to two years to keep them running in tolerance, and maintaining repeatability.

The first two five axis Mills where Okuma's. Those couldn't hold tolerance or repeatability we needed, ended up being returned at great resistance from Okuma, were replaced with Roders. Both Roders (still here and working fine) ALSO required significant servicing in the first 1 and 2 years to get them running to spec, including the dispatch of a Roders engineer from Germany who validated it was in fact a machine issue. He fixed it.

Mitsubishi EDM's, a Sinker and Wire EDM. We've had issues with those requiring several service calls to get them tweaked in, software upgraded, etc.

Bottom line: Don't underestimate the potential need to "tweak" new equipment in as you replace old machines.

Again, many here in this forum didn't need to be told this. Just wanted to call it out because the people I work for have been doing this since 1975. And even they were blind sided by the amount of "tweaks" we had to call in on New equipment.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Orange Vise]

It just feels like everyone has no trust in any machine since a hire from a now bankrupt shop with the best of the best new machines showed up.

So the shop he used to work at was super awesome... except for the fact that it went bankrupt. He doesn't seem to understand the idea of cause and effect. You can't cherry pick the good and leave out the bad.

You know your company's finances. Your employees do not. You've managed to build a company that's fiscally solvent by delivering parts to spec while being scrappy. That's your winning formula. Adopt someone else's formula and watch things collapse.

That doesn't mean your business shouldn't evolve, but evolution happens gradually. From the sounds of it, your company is overdue for a new machine. At the least, it'll give you perspective as to what you've been missing.

The new machine will likely also uncover other deficiencies in your shop, including your workforce. If the machine ends up being much more productive, it'll raise the bar across the entire shop. People will have to work harder. If it doesn't, it's more likely that people, not machines, have been throttling your operation. A new machine is a big change, and big changes bring on unintended consequences (like scrutinizing every part of the business, including the people) because reality never quite matches expectations.

 

[Crowne]

If you buy NEW equipment make sure you personally have some means of testing the machines capabilities ready.

I've heard this called acceptance testing; I only have two machines and the only testing I did was an informal "make this test part and check if the tolerances are good".

Can you share a bit more information on the main bullet points of your acceptance test plan? Do you (or anyone else who wants to chime in) have a written list of important tests to perform?

 

[604Pook]

You may need to go and spend some time on the shop floor looking at day to day work, and what some people say is that 10% of your work brings 90% of your results the rest is filler and busy work. If you can find that area or machine in your business, it would be where I'd look at spending some $ at. It could be the key to more cashflow, and the step to replacing a second machine.

 

[Garwood]

All of your responses are far, far too vague to give any real recommendations. If you want guidance, people need to know what machines (specifically)? What are your products? Your profile says R&D engineer. Is that what the others are? Do you know how to run the machines? Can you hold tolerances on them? Are these a bunch of clapped out old Bridgeports that should have been melted down 20 years ago?

I had the same takeaway and why I haven't responded. The OP's statements are devoid of anything useful.

 

[broke]

I pay cash for machines because I can now. If I were to start over today with the knowledge I have and no money, I would borrow for a new solid machine to get up and running. I paid off my first real VMC and all the tooling for it in about 4 months of owning it.

My guys can be very productive because they have solid equipment and don't need to waste their time fixing things or re cutting a feature.

If the business isn't profitable enough to pay for the new equipment it might not make sense to buy equipment or continue the business.

 

[RC Mech]

I agree with those who’ve said there’s not enough info here to give meaningful advice.

Have you been spinning your wheels since ‘07? What’s the YOY profit? IME shops that have plasma/welders under the same roof are dusty, gritty shit holes. There’s a way to do it right and it involves significant fume extraction, separate areas/buildings, work flow planning etc. Definitely profitable but the machining is ancillary to the weld/fab.

So no, I wouldn’t scrap everything and start over. Focus on the fab side of things? I don’t know the economics of your location, haven’t done a SWOT on your business etc. The new guy spreading dissent amongst the ranks is a culture problem.

 

[ttrager]

I've heard this called acceptance testing; I only have two machines and the only testing I did was an informal "make this test part and check if the tolerances are good".

Can you share a bit more information on the main bullet points of your acceptance test plan? Do you (or anyone else who wants to chime in) have a written list of important tests to perform?

We do not have a formal acceptance test plan. Machines are evaluated and purchased by the the two owners. They run the machines "through their paces" to ensure they are working "fine". And they did that with the machines in question. They also engaged the machinists at those positions in that process. I had no involvement in those exercises.

In follow up with the one owner who was spear-heading installation and use of the machines, to the best of my recollection:

• After a bit of use (a couple of weeks or months, not terribly long), tolerances were no longer being held.
• Repeatability suddenly disappeared, to a degree that was fatal to our product (we have to hold .0002 to .0003 total tolerance quite often. In some extreme cases .0001 though this is rare)
• My recollection is that one culprit in one case was the appearance of backlash.
• In the case of the Mitsubishi Sinker EDM, there was more than one call having to do with performance issues, EDM surface finish. That was traced to two things: 1) There was a software upgrade needed, and 2) Operator Training issues on a couple of specific features/operations.

The worst of it was the purchase of the two Okuma 5-axis Mills. Those ended up being so unfixable apparently that the owners had to strong-arm Okuma to take them back. My recollection is failure to hold size, tolerance, and repeatability. The owners went with Roders to replace those, and even the Roders had to have SIGNIFICANT tech time to fix. Again, not holding size, failing to repeat.

Bottom Line: We all know what we expect from a CNC machine: Holding size. Maintaining repeatability. Spindles without run-out, .etc.

No one buys a machine without having a list of performance requirements that match your products and customer requirements. That's what you went shopping with. I would recommend putting those requirements in a list, drawing up a test-part or two that tests those capabilities, and when the machine is delivered and installed the first thing you run through it is one to six (?) of those parts. Then inspect each test part carefully to see if they are not only in-tolerance, but REPEATABLE / TYPICAL across all of them.

A bit of a TLDR. The short version: My experience has been, YOU must check the machines performance and it's ability to hold size, maintain repeatability, etc. DO NOT trust the Manufacturer. And this isn't even a knock at them. These machines are just so damn complicated nowadays you have no idea what's happened in shipping, .etc.

 

[pgmrmike]

I cant add much that hasnt been said, especially not knowing your full situation. I do know that having solid, accurate, reliable machines is paramount to me. I know a guy that cheaped out and it costs him constantly. When a machine is down or making scrap, that is money that is gone forever. You cannot get it back. Cheap tools and machines are a false economy.

Maybe its different for production, or small aluminum parts etc., I dont know. We are a low qty job shop with the vast majority of our work being oil related. Our average leadtime is about 2-3 weeks typically including a week plus at coaters or heat treat.

 

[Covenant MFG]

I'd get a hot dog stand. Seriously, enough is enough. This is a shit business, why drive yourself crazy ? You alrady proved you can survive, now think of something enjoyable to do.