Weight of a Gorton Model 3d or 3z Pantograph & What to Look Out For

[SouthBendModel34]

What would be the weight of a Gorton Pantograph Model 3 ? The seller says he cannot quite read the model number, but makes it out to be a 3d or 3z. He thinks it weighs about half a ton.

What should I look out for in terms of commonly-missing parts or wear?

Thanks - John Ruth

 

[Ries]

A 3 Z weighs right around 1000lbs.
But there are 3A's, 3D's 3J's, 3S's, and maybe others.

critical parts would be collets- the collets to hold the cutters are easily lost, and very hard to find, and something like $300 each from Gorton.
Especially the tapered collet for the tapered shank single point cutter you use for engraving soft materials.

Also, type- often, a set of type can be as much as a machine- a couple hundred bucks per font.
The round cloth belts are available, not cheap, but not fiendishly expensive.

info on models, and original brochures, here-
George Gorton Machine models

 

[stephen thomas]

I think the spindles before 3U were plain bearing with a feed screw for downfeed/depth. 3Z should have the later cartridge style BB unit, with a lever to advance it.

I've never used the plain bearing/feed screw type, but have actively admired how well the cartridge unit and lever feed works and that it is sort of "intuitive" at least for me. What it means to the user is popping it in and out of contact with the work as you move to different areas or index the work as the engraving progresses.

As Ries notes, almost any tooling is worth more than the basic machines, so look everywhere and load up.
That said, i would not worry too much about collets so long as there is at least one. I use all (shop made) sleeves in the one 1/4" collet I own for anything smaller, and 1/4" shank tools for (extremely rare) case of going larger, say for wood or plastic milling. I also don't see the point (ahem! ) of the taper shank tooling, but then I never got any with any of the lots I bought. If it (taper tooling and collet) comes with the machine, great. If not, you are probably not going to need anything larger than 3/16" HSS rounds to make the engraving cutters anyway.

Second thought, though: again I am not familiar with most models, is the suggestion that some _only_ take taper shank? I would almost consider that a deal breaker.

The other tooling that might seem simple but is really nice to have, is a large selection of stylii. It's not difficult to make, but something of a nuisance to have to grind one every time something new comes along, or you want to do proportionate size changes, etc.

Other than that, make sure it's tight in all the linkage.

Good luck, you'll have fun if it is a good one.

smt

 

[L Vanice]

As an example of how cheap the basic 3U machine can be, here is one in Florida with a $99 minimum bid and a vise included. Gorton Model 3U P1 2 Dimensional Pantograph Power ENGRAVER Die Hub Machine | eBay Larry

 

[Ries]

I was lucky enough to get my 3Z Boeing Surplus. It came with an entire pallet of accessories, including the tool grinder, a dozen or more fonts, multiple type tables, and literally hundreds of tiny end mills and single point cutters, and boxes of other stuff, some of which is probably the missing part you need to restore the original Fresh 1 Boeing Hydrofoil or a Space Shuttle.

But I bought it, and use it, almost exclusively for engraving text on things- making signs, labels, plaques, and so on. So, to me, the single point cutters are the most used, and therefore, I am quite happy I have the appropriate collet for them. For signage in plastics, wood, or soft metals like bronze or aluminum, you cant beat a V groove, like the single point cutters make- to my eye, it reads better.

If your use is three dimensional milling of tiny molds or dies, you wouldnt want or need the single points- you would want tiny end mills, and require different collets, the straight shank style. My collets for both are similar to a router collet- they are segmented, slitted collets that need to be tapped to remove, as they self tighten and stay tight. I have different sizes, sleeves, and so on, so I can run a variety of sizes of shanks, all 1/4" or smaller.
I would not think of a Gorton Pantograph as the best tool for milling in harder steels, though- its just not as rigid or controllable as a Deckel, or a real milling machine. Mine, anyway, was clearly designed for lighter duty engraving, text on soft materials.

If I was to attempt to buy all the stuff from Gorton/Famco new, that I got with my machine, I have no doubt it would cost considerably more than a new Haas Mini-mill.

 

[L Vanice]

I will just mention that I have found lots of various angle single point engraver cutters at low cost on eBay, solid carbide with 1/8" straight shanks. Some are from China and some are from eastern Europe. All of them have been decent. It is common to grind a little flat on the sharp end to enable engraving wider lines without having to go very deep into the material. Sheet metal or bi-color plastic plaque material is not very thick, so "tipping" the cutters and selecting the cutter angle is how you control line width. Those Brown & Sharpe no. 1 taper shank Gorton cutters and the special collets/adapters are very rare/expensive, so the 1/8 shank is the way to go. Cutter grinders are more expensive than most old engraving machines, but you can tip a sharp single point cutter freehand on any diamond wheel. Gorton letters are scarce, but you can always find New Hermes or clone letter sets on eBay. Beware the Indian type from Finding King; not very nice. New Hermes type is excellent. You can also get New Hermes type holders and clamp them to the Gorton type table. That is how I use New Hermes type on my Green D2 engraver. Larry

 

[stephen thomas]

If you are cutting deep impressions in softer materials, the half side cutters work well. If the application is finer lines, then the 3 or 4 sided cutters work better IME. Especially in steel.
But either way, with a cheap chicom spindex, either can be made on a surface grinder in a few minutes from straight HSS tool bit rounds. I've made up half side blanks several at a time (and do both ends), and keep in the drawer to point with the requisite angle or shape when needed.

My Gorton is 3D, but it gets a lot of use in 2D/engraving mode. Even a lot of die cutting is actually just 2D.

Here's and example of simple engraving. The depth of engraving is deeper than typical, but it was intentional for the app.
Numbers on the mic barrels and the reference numbers in various places are engraved from stock font. Reference pattern from simple circle guide, indexed. The alpha was carved in wood, copied with reduction into brass, and then used with the font for engraving the part reference.

smt

 

[Billyum]

Stephen, Are those beautiful designed and machined combination locks ? They are works of art, please explain. Bill

 

[stephen thomas]

Billyum-

Thanks for the kudos!

Yes, my design and make to a request for locks for a whimsical application. But I believe the owner intends to publish details eventually, so i better not post or say more. If they disappear, it will be because I had second thoughts. But they were a quick representation of simple engraving with 3 point cutters, on a gorton.

smt

 

[Trboatworks]

I fully rebuilt a WWII vintage 3U from rust bucket stage.
Yeah- ~1000lbs
If you happen to trip on one and get invested in a particular machine work with what you have and you will be able to get the thing running almost regardless of condition.
I did and enjoyed the process of bringing back a old war horse- they are sort of fussy hands on machines which are really a pleasure to use.
Art and mechanics chase every project and one is far removed from our modern era of clip art images plowed into the work by CNC

If you get to choose, as others have mentioned- get as complete a machine as possible and get one with a truckload of fonts.

On my machine, I had to fuss with the funny Gorton bearing races on the Panto arm- replaced balls and milled out the pitting to get the machine running.
As built, races are lapped to high standard.
My spindle had pitted bearing races which I am running to this day- a bit noisy clipping along at 15k but keeps running with liberal doses of spindle oil.
I will call Alpine and get some ceramic bearings one of these days to quiet it down.

I have the plain Gorton taper spindle & plenty of bit stock but find myself using the tiny 1/8" collet mostly.
1/8" bit stock is everywhere- Gorton taper stuff- not so much..
A companion machine I consider as a must have is some sort of cutter grinder.
I have the Gorton 265-5 & put it to use every time the machine is run.

The Gorton:

Some work from it:

 

[stephen thomas]

The owner very generously congratulated me on the pictures, so ok so far!
One more note, and then I will stop so as not to undermine any publication opportunities for him.
Locks are a very small part of a much larger project of a rather whimsical nature.

As can be seen, part of the whimsy on my part is that there are combination keys, instead of combination locks.

Thanks!
smt

 

[Trboatworks]

Beautiful and intriguing work on those locks.