Why do they want thousands for a heat shrink tool machine?

[TKassoc]

It makes a huge difference what size tool you are shrinking. When you are doing small tools the aggressiveness of the heating makes all the difference in actually getting an old tool out. You will certainly get a 3mm or 1/8" tool into a holder with a torch but you aren't going to get it back out.

 

[Mtndew]

The biggest difference in the heat shrink machines is whether or not it's 3 phase in my experience.
If it's 3 phase it will heat up a lot faster than those that are not.
The faster if can heat it up, the less headaches you'll have removing and replacing the tool, and the tool won't be hot.

I've never used a torch to do it. But I suppose I would if I was in a bind.

 

[Garwood]

[Hot Item] Shrink Fit Chuck Shrink Tool Holder for CNC Processing CNC Tool Shrink Fit Machine Electromagnetic Induction Shrink Fit Heat Machine

Warranty: 1 Type: Induction Heating Machine Certification: CE Structure: Vertical Type Brand: Dingli Transport Package: Carton

clamping.en.made-in-china.com

 

[snowshooze]

Look man, if you don't want to buy the stinkin' heat shrink machine, then just don't buy the stinkin' heat shrink machine.

Baja;
I want a heat shrink machine.
But I expect to get some value out of my dollar.
... sweet of you...

 

[snowshooze]

That is a stupid attitude to take. All of us are professionals ITT and this is a discussion worth having.

I have a rough and ready rotary fixture that I built in a half an hour that rotates the holder while I hold a torch against it. Changing out tools is certainly slower than the machine, and that is surely a significant downside to some, but it is the only downside*. Like Snowshooze said, every shrink holder I've ever seen at other shops who use a machine is at least a deep blue, and none of mine are really discoloured at all, apart from one that I made from a capto blank for a special tool - I have no idea if that one is blue because of the alloy or if I made the bore a little too tight.

*I might concede operator skill requirements as another downside...

Well, I took a pair of vice-grips, welded soft jaws on 'em, made a hanger, hung the vice grips on a string about 18" long, clamped onto tool in holder, get it a-spinnin', torch to it, either the holder falls off the tool, or sometimes a light tug.
Then quickly, while the holder is still hot, slide in new tool, air blast cool with air nozzle to under transformation range prior to chilling.
Works just fine, but a bit slow.
Thanks,
Mark

 

[snowshooze]

In order to further reduce temperature fatigue on the holder, I think it would be best to simply break off the cutter with a hammer. Then, you could grind the shank out using Moore...

...well, you get the idea

Damn.
Now there is pure wisdom and expirence.
Boys, we better jot this down somewheres...

 

[snowshooze]

Parts plus time = $ is this too much for you and gregormarwick to comprehend. Go off and build a safe properly built unit and see how quickly the costs add up. And by safe I mean electrically safe. I don't give a shit about the torch, use whatever suits you.

I am not exactly an idiot.
I have built custom CNC equipment for Customers, can read a schematic hydraulic or electrical, and at times, even a Bible. ( But I still smoke, drink cuss and scare little kids like you for fun )

 

[snowshooze]

I addressed the cost aspect but you have chosen to ignore it. Either that or perhaps you are unfortunate enough to have comprehension issues of your own.

I then posed an enquiry about how good the real mccoy machines actually are, which you have ignored too because you don't have a good answer.

You appear to occupy a pretty small box, and exhibit a complete inability to think outside it.

Gregor, I am out of time for that guy. This place is called "Practical Machinist"
I think any " Practical Machinist " would have to really have to consider with great care his return on an investment of several thousand dollars for something he could screw together out of a neon sign power supply, or hook up to the HF welder for little to nothing versus the outlay which I figure would come from what was supposed to be " Profit" and could have better been spent on good beer.

 

[eKretz]

( But I still smoke, drink cuss and scare little kids like you for fun )

Let's not get this shit started again, eh? That was not necessary.

 

[snowshooze]

They're expensive because everyone running one is fancy, and everyone who isn't fancy says "A torch works fine for me."

If the volume was there, could you make one for $2000? Definitely, but it'd be a few hundred grand in development time to get to a real product, and probably $500 to $1000 in parts (depending on how low level you want to design.) So you'll need to sell a few hundred at $2000 each to recoup the development time.

How many "A torch is fine" guys will you convert at $2000? How many new shrink holder users are there per year in the USA, and how many of those can you convert with a $2000 machine?

Eventually you'll run out of easy markets, and have to sell through MSC or someone like that, and they're gonna want to mark it up 100% or more. You don't want to undersell your dealers, so the price goes up to $4000

And for $4000, guys who don't have one will say "A torch works fine for me."

P.S. A torch works fine for me

I have my design. I have enough junk around the shop to throw one together.
If I wasn't so lazy, and had the induction element in hand, I could have it tonight.
And it would work.
Look, when us old guys die off, we are gonna laugh out guts out watching guys like you because you are what you are.

 

[snowshooze]

Firstly you are missing the point. You can continue using your gas torch which no tooling supplier will recommend and in the wrong hands is a dangerous method with the speeds of modern machine tools.

Secondly. He is questioning why the units cost thousands. I actually have experience assisting a friend in building an induction heater as a Covid lockdown project. The cost of parts alone is non trivial and after labour will run into the thousands. Time is money even if people don't like admitting it. Besides which the poster is located in Anchorage Alaska not exactly the manufacturing centre of the world.

I'm all for innovation however this is just an ill informed cheapskate basing an argument on BS.

Really. I think it's more like. A few of us. You obviously don't read a lot of the posts.

Well, that is why I had to learn to do all my own CNC service.
Figure out if it's a blown amp, parameter problem, bad servo motor, encoder, PSP..
anything. I have resurrected four machines to include a Fadal 40-20-28 a Dah-lih with Anilam control, a Haas TM-2 and a Clausing Storm slantbed.
All bought for the price of scrap.
Yeah, just a dumb Alaskan here.

 

[snowshooze]

Yes sir.
I stand corrected.
You do understand Sir.

Let's not get this shit started again, eh? That was not necessary.

 

[snowshooze]

It makes a huge difference what size tool you are shrinking. When you are doing small tools the aggressiveness of the heating makes all the difference in actually getting an old tool out. You will certainly get a 3mm or 1/8" tool into a holder with a torch but you aren't going to get it back out.

I only been doing it for 5 or 7 years...

 

[snowshooze]

I'm going to step in and ask the guys getting a little heated to take a minute... Mystery Man, if you'd cool it with the (not so) subtle insults, I would appreciate it.

(Yeah, yeah, I'm very punny, I know... )

Induction heaters are used because they get heat in *fast* so they're good at expanding the outer surface of the holder quick. A torch isn't as good at that. Still usable most of the time, not nearly as even heating though. I did not realize those induction expanders were so expensive.

We 'ol shop owners have to take into account the return on investment.
Ot, the Employees would have no place to work.

 

[snowshooze]

If you, as a company, have 100k's worth of tooling etc , do you really want your operators waving flaming torches around the workshop?

Every Man on the floor can weld.
All of my Machinists' are TECHNICAL welders, capable of pre-heats, slope cools, weld filler metal selection... some more than others...
And heat treating basics.
In Alaska, we must fend for ourselves.
And there ain't a one of them that can't jerk the transmission out of their car and rebuild it.

 

[snowshooze]

The biggest difference in the heat shrink machines is whether or not it's 3 phase in my experience.
If it's 3 phase it will heat up a lot faster than those that are not.
The faster if can heat it up, the less headaches you'll have removing and replacing the tool, and the tool won't be hot.

I've never used a torch to do it. But I suppose I would if I was in a bind.

Everything in my shop is 3 phase.
Heck, my flashlight is 3 phase....

 

[snowshooze]

If you, as a company, have 100k's worth of tooling etc , do you really want your operators waving flaming torches around the workshop?

Over 2 million just in the machines here.

 

[snowshooze]

I used MAPP torches for a while and they shrink in tools fine. They aren't fantastic for getting tools out. I had a run for a while where I used shrink fit 1/2" holders for HSSCo spot drills. I never got one of those out with the MAPP torch but they all come out fine with the Techniks induction heater.

There is a lot of stuff around the shop I could make cheap. But I only have so many hours in the day and I can definitely make more than $5k of profit doing something other than designing something I can issue a PO for and have a week later. I reserve dicking around time for personal projects or making cheap something I need a lot of. Saving $1k a piece on something I want 25 of can justify a couple of days of dicking around.

Well;
Ain't much of a challenge to me to design one.
I already have.
Which was the reason for starting the thread, ok?
Ain't nothing to them.
So, why the price????

 

[Comatose]

I have my design. I have enough junk around the shop to throw one together.
If I wasn't so lazy, and had the induction element in hand, I could have it tonight.
And it would work.
Look, when us old guys die off, we are gonna laugh out guts out watching guys like you because you are what you are.

Wow, that got personal fast. I also have plenty of junk to make one from scraps laying around the shop. And... Mine would be better than yours.

I've also developed a lot of products and know what doing it to a commercially viable standard means and costs.

But hey, when you are dead, feel free to laugh your guts out. I think we can agree on that sentiment, evidently?

 

[eKretz]

Wow, that got personal fast. I also have plenty of junk to make one from scraps laying around the shop. And... Mine would be better than yours.

I've also developed a lot of products and know what doing it to a commercially viable standard means and costs.

But hey, when you are dead, feel free to laugh your guts out. I think we can agree on that sentiment, evidently?

I don't think you can make a judgement on someone's electrical/electronics skill level without personally knowing him. And yours would be better than his? Really? What's going on with you guys? Regressing back to grade school now? I don't think it's too far a stretch to think a guy could make one of these and be safe enough using it in his personal shop if he had the skill and knowledge to be able to make it. Would I want lowest common denominator employees using one? Quite likely not.

Whether a torch will remove a small steel tool from a shrink holder is probably very greatly dependent on the torch in question. If it's a ring oxy/acetylene torch, I bet it sure would. It's just a matter of getting that heat in fast enough to create a temperature differential from the outside of the material to the inside so that it pulls the bore open before much heat transfers to the tool shank. Probably a pretty narrow time window before conduction screws that up, too.